How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#171

Post by arjun-menon » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #27

rufus_foreman wrote: post #4

"After a while, more and more, you’ll find yourself in moments of awe, stunned by the size and fragility of it all; the mountains of work and talent and creativity and foresight and intelligence and luck that went into it. And you’ll reach for the word “magic” because you won’t know how else to describe it and then you lean back and smile, wondering how someone could not." I guess I wish I felt like that about progra…

The longer I am in this profession (and it's been over 20 years) the less I see my peers as "dicks and idiots" but more as victims of the same broken game. I work with very smart people, to be honest. It's the technology and the employers and the culture of development that's the problem. Retiring sounds good right about now.

> Retiring sounds good right about now.

My personal plan, instead of retiring, is to work on inventing solutions to the issues plaguing large and complex software projects. One of my primary sub-goals under this mission, is to create a new programming language that'll handle complexity excellently, while also making it hard for a programmer to write bugs in it (strong static type system, deep static analysis, thorough linting, some kind of automatic proofing or verification, paradigms that make writing bugs less likely, paradigms that handle modularization and complexity gracefully, etc).

Overall, when there are big problems in the world (poverty, human rights abuses, climate change, bad software), I want to try to use my skills and abilities toward solving those problems, rather throwing my hands in the air, and giving into hopelessness.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#172

Post by antoniuschan99 » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

overscore wrote: post #135

reaperducer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retiring sounds good right about now. I'm with you. If I had another skill, I'd give up computers entirely. Maybe have a smartphone, and that's it. But only for limited use. I wish I could build things with my hands, or play an instrument, or just be good at something else, and let the tech world pass me by. I used to love technology because it was fun and interesting. It's no longer either of those things.

For almost exactly the same reasons as discussed above, I'm in the process of trying to move from software development to medicine. I'm currently a pre-hospital medical practitioner and work part-time in that field. My pay averages over the last year averages between 1/20th to 1/25th (0.05 to 0.04 times) my hourly pay as a software development consultant. I'm now trying to decide whether I should attempt a medical de…

I’m thinking of going back to school for Biology, but not sure. Have been thinking about it for a few years (getting older, seeing people around falling ill, and now the pandemic). Ultimately in Bioinformatics or Genomics. At least I can still utilize my technology knowledge than start from 0.

Also, the pay is less than a normal software developer.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#173

Post by caust1c » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #15

While I don't disagree with the article, this quote better sums up how I feel about programming. > The programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure thought-stuff. He builds his castles in the air, from air, creating by exertion of the imagination... Yet the program construct, unlike the poet's words, is real in the sense that it moves and works, producing visible outputs separate from the construc…

I think that's why so many of my peers (including myself) are keen on removing ambiguity from code. Code itself should be as clear as possible and only able to be interpreted by readers in the way it's meant to convey instructions.

However the solutions are where the elegance, creativity and poetry should lie.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#174

Post by wffurr » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

arjun-menon wrote: post #171

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The longer I am in this profession (and it's been over 20 years) the less I see my peers as "dicks and idiots" but more as victims of the same broken game. I work with very smart people, to be honest. It's the technology and the employers and the culture of development that's the problem. Retiring sounds good right about now.

> Retiring sounds good right about now. My personal plan, instead of retiring, is to work on inventing solutions to the issues plaguing large and complex software projects. One of my primary sub-goals under this mission, is to create a new programming language that'll handle complexity excellently, while also making it hard for a programmer to write bugs in it (strong static type system, deep static analysis, thoroug…

>> create a new programming language

The problems with software engineering aren't technical. They are organizational, political, and cultural.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#175

Post by o_m » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

I used to love programming, but after doing it for some years professionally I feel like a lot of people (clients, managers, co-workers) look down on it. Like its just a neccessary evil they wish they didn't have to deal with. I feel like it is the lowest status profession you can have in the tech world.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#176

Post by FpUser » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #27

rufus_foreman wrote: post #4

"After a while, more and more, you’ll find yourself in moments of awe, stunned by the size and fragility of it all; the mountains of work and talent and creativity and foresight and intelligence and luck that went into it. And you’ll reach for the word “magic” because you won’t know how else to describe it and then you lean back and smile, wondering how someone could not." I guess I wish I felt like that about progra…

The longer I am in this profession (and it's been over 20 years) the less I see my peers as "dicks and idiots" but more as victims of the same broken game. I work with very smart people, to be honest. It's the technology and the employers and the culture of development that's the problem. Retiring sounds good right about now.

I've been programming for about 40 years. Had ups and downs. But I mostly worked on creating new products (not always purely software). Also been on my own for the most part. In the end. I love it and I hate it. I love it because it let me express myself and it is a great feeling when you see others using your products. I hate it because there is always way too much non creative work and general BS around but that's life.

But generally I enjoy it and are not planning retirement. Will just maybe work less.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#177

Post by ZephyrBlu » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

mb7733 wrote: post #97

olav wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It becomes rather interesting in my mind the moment you think about when the thing no longer exists. We loose so many things all the time, the ability to make stuff, the ability to repair things, even the use of drills and hammers quickly fades away for the TikTok generation. I love the notion of the OP and applaud initiatives like the various Smalltalks or https://gpblocks.org/ that try to keep the awe in our craft…

You think that young people don't use hammers?

I wouldn't be surprised if most Gen Z people had never picked up a hammer in their life (Speaking as a Gen Z myself).

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#178

Post by ZephyrBlu » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #16

Yesterday I set up a Django server that exposes some tables through an API that's fully queryable and filterable and sortable and paginated. And I wired it right into an antd table component on a Web app. And the whole thing is just so nicely interactive and #%$&ing clean and beautiful and elegant. I felt such joy making it. Then I had a moment of thinking, "wow the CEO and friends are going to be blown away." Until…

I think people in every profession would feel like this sometimes.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#179

Post by overscore » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:46 PM UTC

antoniuschan99 wrote: post #172

overscore wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For almost exactly the same reasons as discussed above, I'm in the process of trying to move from software development to medicine. I'm currently a pre-hospital medical practitioner and work part-time in that field. My pay averages over the last year averages between 1/20th to 1/25th (0.05 to 0.04 times) my hourly pay as a software development consultant. I'm now trying to decide whether I should attempt a medical de…

I’m thinking of going back to school for Biology, but not sure. Have been thinking about it for a few years (getting older, seeing people around falling ill, and now the pandemic). Ultimately in Bioinformatics or Genomics. At least I can still utilize my technology knowledge than start from 0. Also, the pay is less than a normal software developer.

I am extremely empathetic with you on the decision you have to make.

I am well aware that software developers on the whole have much better than average remuneration, so it's understandable that positions in other fields will attract lesser pay. However, another point which I didn't labour above (because I'm not sure if it's universal or in my own country only) is that student and junior doctors are expected to work absurd hours, often double the 48 hour per average week limit set by the EU Working Time Directive.

I'm currently (as in right now taking a break from) studying for the HPAT standardised test in my country in preparation for applying for medicine in the coming academic year. Although it's not particularly complex, I'm aware that if I had spent the time that I dedicated to my EMT qualification and now the HPAT, I probably could have added hundreds of thousands to my annual income as opposed to a decade of ~€15 ph labour.

This isn't so much a reply to you at this point as a lament about medical care is undervalued. I'm a competent software developer at best.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#180

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 10:46 PM UTC

arjun-menon wrote: post #171

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The longer I am in this profession (and it's been over 20 years) the less I see my peers as "dicks and idiots" but more as victims of the same broken game. I work with very smart people, to be honest. It's the technology and the employers and the culture of development that's the problem. Retiring sounds good right about now.

> Retiring sounds good right about now. My personal plan, instead of retiring, is to work on inventing solutions to the issues plaguing large and complex software projects. One of my primary sub-goals under this mission, is to create a new programming language that'll handle complexity excellently, while also making it hard for a programmer to write bugs in it (strong static type system, deep static analysis, thoroug…

[deleted]