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Autopilot on Cars for $999

comma.ai

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Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#171

Post by teraflop »

crazypython wrote: post #123
jeremycarter wrote: post #62

Not sure I'm so keen on Python driving my car. I've looked through some of the code and I think for me to buy into the safety the quality of the code would need to be improved, well commented, and audited.

> Not sure I'm so keen on Python driving my car. It uses CPython, which is reference counted, letting them ensure predictable timing/hard real-time system.

CPython includes both reference counting and a stop-the-world tracing garbage collector. You can turn off the GC -- and openpilot appears to do so[1] -- but the tradeoff is that any objects that are part of reference cycles will be leaked, and will not be deallocated until the program exits.

Anybody want to place bets on how many of these dependencies[2] have been audited to determine whether they can create cyclic references?

[1]: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/master/common/real... [2]: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/blob/master/Pipfile

Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#172

Post by mmglr »

Is the device running Android or something else?

I understand this is marketed as a "dev kit". And I understand the cost benefit for shipping a COTS OnePlus phone to provide the camera and UI. But I wouldn't buy one of these due to how much windshield visibility is blocked by the device and the wire dangling from the headliner.

It would be better to have the camera and wiring hidden away next to the rear view mirror similar to how other driver assist cameras are packaged, with a CAN connected processing box in the glovebox (so audible chimes can be made), and infotainment screen integration for the UI (perhaps as an Android or CarPlay app).

Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#173

Post by gkop »

bko wrote: post #166
coddle-hark wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latest commit in the repo [0] right now is "should work" (34ff295). Filtering by "bug" in the issue tracker gives: Comma two freeze and reboot while engaged . I recently had an incident on the interstate where my comma two froze completely (while engaged) and rebooted. The video froze, Comma's steering torque turned off, then after about five seconds in this state, the device rebooted. Zygote restarting while OP…

Cool. Now do Volvo Pilot Assist. Comma.ai is trying to do big things and I hope they succeed. No reason self-driving technology should be bundled with a car and I have little faith in auto manufacturers to deliver. Lane assist technology exists. Look at consumer reports for a comprehensive review [0] (comma.ai was #1 in lane assist, above even tesla). They are open about their mistakes, issues and tradeoffs, much mor…

The difference is that Volvo does not disclaim liability.

Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#174

Post by blub »

madamelic wrote: post #33
tdeck wrote: post #4

Anyone know if this has killed someone yet?

Human life is sacred. Absolutely. but. If we are concerned with cars killing people, we should get rid of cars. This FUD around self-driving == killing people will, in the long-term, cause more deaths than the handful of sensationalized stories about self-driving deaths. The only reason those car crashes get national attention is because they were self-driving. In every other way they are boring. Bicyclists hit by ca…

Like I've said before, I don't have any problem if those that want to accelerate humanity's progress in this area volunteer themselves and their families to be self-driving test dummies.

I'd even support the idea of building them statues, should they meet an unfortunate hero's end.

Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#175

Post by bko »

picks_at_nits wrote: post #164
bko wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the appropriate level of liability? If I buy a cell phone holder for my car, and it distracts me and I get into an accident? What if Car Play lags and i'm distracted and I get into an accident? What if radio plays an ambulance and I freak out and get into an accident? What if my sunglasses make me mistake a red light? This product does lane assist. It does a good job according to consumer reports [0], higher t…

I'm not gonna debate the "appropriate level of liability." My point has to do with what you're signalling. If a thing is alpha-level, and real humans can get killed, I wouldn't let random people buy it and use it in their cars, period. Informed consent is deeply problematic for a product like this: Very few people have the expertise to look at the code and the hardware and properly evaluate the risks, right down to u…

So your main problem is about the disclaimer and that its called alpha. I provided a source that rates it the best product among all other competitors and the highest score on keep driver engage. And they have the most miles of any other lane assist technology. So I think its safe. I think the alpha is more tongue in cheek and is not a term that means anything really apart from, as you say, a wink and a nod.

For the laymen user, they won't read the disclaimer or understand what Alpha means or even know that is is "alpha". I'm an engineer and I probably won't ever really audit the code. I will do my research like most other people, read online reviews or testimonials like Consumer Reports.

So are you against all lane assist technology? How about auto-braking? Anti lock breaks?

Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#176

Post by luplex »

tjoff wrote: post #165
gonehome wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all the same as Tesla. Tesla expects you to use its product on the road and expects it to work within the constraints they tell you with you also paying attention.

> "with you also paying attention." So no guarantees whatsoever then. Because you are always responsible and are always expected to recover from anything the autopilot might ever come up with. Teslas do fail in deadly ways. Everyone that cares to look knows this. Yet Tesla is fine with it, even while knowing that humans can't reason about safety when the car drives perfectly the other 99% of times.

Tesla guarantees that an attentive driver can safely take control.

Comma does not.

Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#177

Post by bko »

gkop wrote: post #173
bko wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool. Now do Volvo Pilot Assist. Comma.ai is trying to do big things and I hope they succeed. No reason self-driving technology should be bundled with a car and I have little faith in auto manufacturers to deliver. Lane assist technology exists. Look at consumer reports for a comprehensive review [0] (comma.ai was #1 in lane assist, above even tesla). They are open about their mistakes, issues and tradeoffs, much mor…

The difference is that Volvo does not disclaim liability.

Oh I didn't know that.

Can you point me to their liability policy?

[EDIT] this was the best I could find

> You are always ultimately responsible for driving in a safe manner, even when using Pilot Assist.

https://www.volvocars.com/uk/support/topics/use-your-car/car...

I don't think comma.ai should be faulted for being open. I have trouble finding any statements on liability on any other lane assist technology. Would love to be proven wrong with an actual policy.

Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#178

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

bri3d wrote: post #11
yalogin wrote: post #5

I don't know well the system works but do they plug into the cruise control mechanism? How are they able to provide the automatic braking functionality?

Yes, they intercept whichever CAN bus in the target vehicle is used to send Adaptive Cruise Control and Automatic Lane Keeping messages, and send their own instead. On many target cars, they actually simply use the stock Adaptive Cruise Control and openpilot provides only the steering (ALK).

Seems like it could have disastrous results if the OEM components start talking on the bus, sharing a completely different state.

Re: Autopilot on Cars for $999

#179

Post by jryle70 »

tjoff wrote: post #165
gonehome wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all the same as Tesla. Tesla expects you to use its product on the road and expects it to work within the constraints they tell you with you also paying attention.

> "with you also paying attention." So no guarantees whatsoever then. Because you are always responsible and are always expected to recover from anything the autopilot might ever come up with. Teslas do fail in deadly ways. Everyone that cares to look knows this. Yet Tesla is fine with it, even while knowing that humans can't reason about safety when the car drives perfectly the other 99% of times.

> Because you are always responsible and are always expected to recover from anything the autopilot might ever come up with.

That's always been the case for any driving assistance systems that automakers offer, AFAIK. Do you object to the state of driving assistance in general or just how Tesla implements it?

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