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The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

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Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#171
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what your point is. Putting a school in a middle class area rather than a ghetto doesn't make it "elite". Especially when any kid can go there, regardless of where they live.

Not in theory. In practice however it is different: https://www.lararforbundet.se/bloggar/lararforbundets-utreda...

I'm still not sure what your point is.

I am not saying that the demographics in free schools are the same as in public schools, or that there is no correlation between where the students in a given free school live.

I'm sure they tend to skew locally, if that is your point, but in any case they skew much less locally than the local public school. So the reason a given free school has better grades than the public school down the street is not its location.

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#172
Allow me to open the door so that the elephant may walk into the room. The swedish try something new to get kids educated, but problems quickly develop :

1) People don't like shareholders taking money from the public sector. 2) People don't like teachers being underpaid.

So, let's level up this argument. What if teachers were making the profits ? Would that still be repugnant to you ?

How about a system where anyone (and literally I mean anyone, not just someone with a Master's in education) can start a school out of their living room. Let's say a retired entrepreneur that used to run a factory in your town.

6 families agree to pay with a school voucher so this retiree will teach the kids full time, at her house.

Public schools will lose the students, as will the certified teachers. The profit will instead flow to the retiree. She's making ~72K /yr and is happy because that is substantially more than the median teacher salary.

Is this scenario still "Shameful" ? What if more teachers did it, they banded together and formed a collective ? Once the profit gets larger.. does it then become repugnant ?

Lets take another step further. Lets say the collective teachers choose to retire. They worked hard, they taught many students, but now they are now done. They get to keep the stock in the collective they founded. We now have stockholders.

What is then, the effective difference between the stockholders in sweden and the stockholders of my example ?

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#173
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty sure they have private venture backed school system in mind. Would you have something to back this assumption up?

Sure. These links are in Finnish [1] https://www.kokoomusnuoret.fi/kannanotot/2015/05/suomi-tarvi... [2] https://www.verkkouutiset.fi/pitaako-vanhempien-saada-valita...

I can deal with that encryption. Thanks for the links, didn't hear before this being a discussion topic at all.

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#174
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who wanted to go to KTH Here's your selection bias. Self-selection is also selection.

I'm not sure what you are claiming here. Are you saying that I'm wrong in questioning calling KTH "elite" because I used one anecdote in a larger argument? You can look up the admission statistics yourself: it's very easy to get in to KTH. Maybe there are some programs that are more competitive than others. When I finished high school, the admission criteria for example Electrical Engineering was roughly "you need a…

You are drawing conclusions about Swedish education based on a biased sample (people admitted to KTH).

It's true that looking at people admitted to elite medical schools would introduce even bigger bias, but it does not mean that the sample you chose is representative.

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#175

I'm a student in one of the AcadeMedia for-profit schools. They have around 30 schools with the same brand name as mine and they keep on buying others. There's over 600 of them. There are of course other brands that they own but this one is focused on technology. Now let me tell you about my experience. First, this school is very focused on marketing. They keep on doing things that are only for seemingly attracting s…

Actually the thing to do is stage protests one the dates that the schools have their information evenings. I'll bet you they will listen very quickly.

Problem is many have experienced even worse schools (and there are many) so they're comparatively happy with this. It won't happen. I've also experienced a non-profit teacher co-operative. It was leaps and bounds better than this.

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That suggestion defeats the purpose. The thing is schools are supposed to provide meals to students (at no cost), so if you're bringing your own lunch you're not saving your money, you saving the school money.

If you take the money that the school gives you and make your own lunch for less money than the restaurants charge, that's better than a free lunch, since you have more money.

The cards are locked to a few restaurants.

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on the summer as the school does not allow eating anything other than what the cafeteria serves in the buildings. The lunch cards are restricted to certain restaurants only.

Wow, banning people from bringing their own lunches to eat for lunch seems quite weird to me. Over-regulate much?

Yes. But that's what they do. It's a trend. The programing teacher also forces one editor on all students. You can't even rest fruits in school.

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#178
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in theory. In practice however it is different: https://www.lararforbundet.se/bloggar/lararforbundets-utreda...

I'm still not sure what your point is. I am not saying that the demographics in free schools are the same as in public schools, or that there is no correlation between where the students in a given free school live. I'm sure they tend to skew locally, if that is your point, but in any case they skew much less locally than the local public school. So the reason a given free school has better grades than the public sch…

What I am saying is that free schools end up with the easy students. It is not as easy as "anyone can go there" since we have the principle of proximity (närhetsprincipen). People living close to the school will have a higher probability of getting a place. In which areas are the schools of Engelska Skolan? Academedia? Kunskapsskolan? Look in areas above the 80th socioeconomic percentile.

In a system where each school gets a fixed amount of money per student, this puts public schools at a disadvantage, yet the results do not reflect this. We have a school system that leads to more segregation, more costs (like the recent debacle about cities having to compensate free schools for rather inane things) - but we get very little for it.

The equivalence ("likvärdigheten") of the Swedish school system is at an all time low, and it has been getting constantly worse since the early 80s. The free school reform has done nothing but accelerate the problem.

I don't mind free schools at all. I don't even mind that they are making money from it. What I do mind is that none of the promises of the free school reform has been delivered on. I am old enough to remember the promises of less segregation. Better schools driven by passionate teachers (these do exist). Schools where gifted students flourish.

This seems to never have been evaluated. None of these things have happened.

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#179
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. These links are in Finnish [1] https://www.kokoomusnuoret.fi/kannanotot/2015/05/suomi-tarvi... [2] https://www.verkkouutiset.fi/pitaako-vanhempien-saada-valita...

I can deal with that encryption. Thanks for the links, didn't hear before this being a discussion topic at all.

Also from the past (again with Finnish encryption)

[1] http://yle.fi/uutiset/3-5056120

Re: The Shame of Swedish Education: J’Accuse

#180
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not sure what your point is. I am not saying that the demographics in free schools are the same as in public schools, or that there is no correlation between where the students in a given free school live. I'm sure they tend to skew locally, if that is your point, but in any case they skew much less locally than the local public school. So the reason a given free school has better grades than the public sch…

What I am saying is that free schools end up with the easy students. It is not as easy as "anyone can go there" since we have the principle of proximity (närhetsprincipen). People living close to the school will have a higher probability of getting a place. In which areas are the schools of Engelska Skolan? Academedia? Kunskapsskolan? Look in areas above the 80th socioeconomic percentile. In a system where each schoo…

> What I am saying is that free schools end up with the easy students.

Of course they do, but isn't that sort of the point with competition? The good schools get the good students, that would happed regardless of who owned them.

> In which areas are the schools of Engelska Skolan? Academedia? Kunskapsskolan? Look in areas above the 80th socioeconomic percentile

You keep repeating this, I'm not sure why. Do you think I have disputed it? I certainly wouldn't want to start a free school in a ghetto, I'd definitely choose a nice area.

Or are you repeating it because you think it's especially problematic?

> In a system where each school gets a fixed amount of money per student, this puts public schools at a disadvantage, yet the results do not reflect this.

Don't free schools have better results?

> Schools where gifted students flourish

Was this ever promised? Gifted students have never been a priority in Swedish schools.

My problem with the free schools is not that it's unfair, because I don't think it is. You need to look at it from the students' point of view. If we had had ghettos in the 70s and you grew up there, you'd be forced to go to a school with mostly unmotivated children. Nowadays motivated children from problem areas have the option to go to schools in nice areas, together with other motivated students.

No the problem for me is that they are publicly funded but run for profit, that's a crazy system that is very easy to abuse.

The fact that parents don't have to pay just makes it worse, then schools can get away with marketing to students, they don't actually have to provide better education.

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