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Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

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171–180 of 204 posts

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you make it illegal to provide bad jobs, those jobs will not be substituted one-for-one for good jobs. That's not how an economy works. I think this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how markets work. If you are a smart business, you don't charge what's "fair", you don't start by saying "I'm going to pay $X to my workers, so let's see how many I can hire with that money." Those are bad ways to run a busi…

>>The idea that Amazon is going to stop hiring workers if they get more pee breaks... that's just not how markets work. If Amazon could afford to let those workers go, it would have done it already. They will hire fewer workers.. there will be fewer profitable business ventures when the cost of one of the inputs to production increases. In some case, it's true that higher wages will reduce profits, instead of reducin…

> They will hire fewer workers..

Why isn't Amazon hiring fewer workers right now? Is the board wasting money on workers that it doesn't need? If Amazon could hit the shipping volumes it needs to hit with 50% of the current workforce, then it would be hiring ~50% of the current workforce -- if that's not the case, then somebody in the company that's making hiring decisions needs to be fired.

> Price controls don't work to increase net welfare.

A) no one is talking about price controls on final products, they're talking about price increases on one of the inputs.

B) on the subject of wages and worker prices, minimum wage increases have been shown on multiple occasions to increase net welfare. We can debate the theory, but we can also just look at reality and say, "we've tried this before, and when handled correctly, it works."

> Prices are a collectively generated signal produced from a complex network of interlocking exchanges that are based on a vast array of localized calculations.

I would be on board with your argument if the original comment starting this thread didn't boil down to "costs go up, prices go up". You're not talking about a complex signal at that point, you're talking about basic economic principles, and basic economic principles is that in Capitalism, price is what people will pay, not what a product costs to produce.

Even your N95 example shows this point. Why did prices go up for N95 masks? Not primarily because of costs of production, primarily because demand changed. The basic principle economic principle is demand, not costs of production.

If you want to step away from those basic principles and talk about the complicated realities of what people will invest, and how safe they feel, and the size of the payout influencing investment enthusiasm, and so on -- then fine, that's reasonable, but the complicated reality is also that economic experts have looked at minimum wage increases, weighed up all of the complicated inputs that go into final product prices, and regularly concluded in multiple studies that minimum wages don't consistently increase prices or decrease market investment.

> It's entirely possible for price controls to still create losses while the market is not perfectly competitive.

Possible, but definitely not guaranteed.

> but it's nowhere as simple as "the economy doesn't conform to a simplistic model therefore a price floor is good".

Agreed, but "the economy doesn't conform to a simplistic model therefore a price floor is good" is much closer to reality than saying "the economy does conform to simplistic models, therefore a price floor is always bad." You're arguing that the simplistic model isn't applicable, in a thread that was started with you arguing that the simple model was that price and material/wage costs would always move in the same direction. That's just not true, it's both an oversimplification and just bad economic theory.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#172
post #15

This is another reminder that we have some of the negative aspects of a cyberpunk future without the cool empowering hacking parts. I wonder about the sort of person who would design such a website. Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I am not trying to be hyperbolic here.

> Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I am not trying to be hyperbolic here. Many of us don’t like unions. We consider them to be parasitic organizations that pervert the employer-employee-customer relationship without adding value. In fact, by twisting a business so that it is run for the benefit of the employees instead of for the mutual benefit of employees,…

If you look at the website, it's not the mere fact that it's against unions that is disturbing. That's an ideological point of view that doesn't strike me as unusual. In fact, it's pretty rational to be anti-union if you are among those who stand to profit from that, just like people who can profit from unions will naturally be interested in one and will align most of their ideology with that.

It's the sheer cynicism, condescension, accidental self-parody, and other design choices of that website that make me wonder about the people behind it. It's a postmodern cocktail of horror. Nowhere do they make a good faith attempt to lay out solid anti-union arguments.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#173
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that workers who do physical work do not earn enough, it's not OK to simplify the work that sysadmins, developers and other people do. I for one work for 7 days a week for ~8 weeks now, and just sat and watched a wall to relax yesterday night because my brain and body refused to do absolutely anything . Every work is exhausting when overdone or just done with sufficient care.

And a warehouse worker would have to work 7 to 10 times longer in their “hell” to earn what you made.

Which reflects the relative scarcity of people who can work in warehousese vs. people who can do what he does.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, you want your net profit to rise. Which is determined by a combination of, among other things, your profit margin and your volume. > They don’t care about the margin, they care about the total yield (growth + dividend). And again, how is that determined? Does profit margin and net profit often play a role in dividend policies by any chance? > Glad you agree that companies are optimizing for their place in the m…

> Which is determined by a combination of your profit margin and your volume. Yes, and a lower margin keeps the volume high by making it more difficult for people to compete. > And again, how is that determined? Does profit margin often play a role in dividend policies by any chance? Yeah the amount of profit impacts the decision to issue a dividend. > Are you trying to argue that Amazon is in an underdog position an…

> Look, its clear that you have a perspective and you’re not interested in other perspectives.

I'm not going to force anyone to debate with me, but if your economic theory says that Amazon's prices should have dropped this year, and they didn't, then your economic theory is wrong and/or incomplete. That seems like a pretty straightforward test.

Sometimes companies make more money and they don't lower prices, pass those increases onto workers, or expand. This is something that is observable just by looking at price/wage trends in different industries/companies and comparing them with the associated profit increases.

We know that "profits go up, prices go down" is too simplistic and/or flawed of a model to talk about the real world because it's not accurately predicting what companies do in the real world.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is free to refuse to sign any contract with the union that doesn't leave them with their desired level of profitability. Forming a union doesn't change that. Amazon undercuts competitors and plays hard ball with suppliers literally every day. That's business, that's life. I don't see why workers shouldn't take their opportunity to engage in tough negotiations with Amazon themselves.

> I don't see why workers shouldn't take their opportunity to engage in tough negotiations with Amazon themselves. Because collective bargaining results in a net decrease in value because of moral hazards, perverse incentives, and agent-principal problems.

Clearly the people behind this anti-union website disagree with you.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#176
post #15

This is another reminder that we have some of the negative aspects of a cyberpunk future without the cool empowering hacking parts. I wonder about the sort of person who would design such a website. Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I am not trying to be hyperbolic here.

> I wonder about the sort of person who would design such a website. Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I suggest you hang around Blind for a bit and you'll realize that some of our techie colleagues hold some.. interesting opinions about labor or about how much to pay workers we now consider 'essential'

I am not in the tech world, but reading through HN has been more than enough to understand exactly what you mean. Ultimately, people's opinions will change depending on what increases their material conditions at the expense of other groups, and I am no different in that regard.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is free to refuse to sign any contract with the union that doesn't leave them with their desired level of profitability. Forming a union doesn't change that. Amazon undercuts competitors and plays hard ball with suppliers literally every day. That's business, that's life. I don't see why workers shouldn't take their opportunity to engage in tough negotiations with Amazon themselves.

> I don't see why workers shouldn't take their opportunity to engage in tough negotiations with Amazon themselves. Because collective bargaining results in a net decrease in value because of moral hazards, perverse incentives, and agent-principal problems.

These kinds of arguments are only ever applied to workers.

Nobody argues that a company having a single legal team that represents all of its managers and sets org-wide hiring policies is anti-efficiency. If you negotiate with a publicly traded company, you are engaging in collective bargaining, because public companies are collectives that represent the multiple interests of multiple stakeholders during negotiations.

Nobody argues that companies are anti-value because they restrict my freedom to negotiate a separate contract with every single member of the company's board. But suddenly it's different if the workers do the same thing.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is determined by a combination of your profit margin and your volume. Yes, and a lower margin keeps the volume high by making it more difficult for people to compete. > And again, how is that determined? Does profit margin often play a role in dividend policies by any chance? Yeah the amount of profit impacts the decision to issue a dividend. > Are you trying to argue that Amazon is in an underdog position an…

> Look, its clear that you have a perspective and you’re not interested in other perspectives. I'm not going to force anyone to debate with me, but if your economic theory says that Amazon's prices should have dropped this year, and they didn't, then your economic theory is wrong and/or incomplete. That seems like a pretty straightforward test. Sometimes companies make more money and they don't lower prices, pass tho…

> I'm not going to force anyone to debate with me, but if your economic theory says that Amazon's prices should have dropped this year, and they didn't, then your economic theory is wrong and/or incomplete. That seems like a pretty straightforward test.

Right, except that’s not what I said. So when you insist on a gross misreading of my theory, that happens to also not coincide with some fact you refer to, I question your sincerity in discourse.

> Sometimes companies make more money and they don't lower prices, pass those increases onto workers, or expand. This is something that is observable just by looking at price/wage trends in different industries/companies and comparing them with the associated profit increases.

It is for this reason that theoretical predictions in economics are considered ceteris paribus

> We know that "profits go up, prices go down" is too simplistic and/or flawed of a model to talk about the real world because it's not accurately predicting what companies do in the real world.

Yeah we do.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see why workers shouldn't take their opportunity to engage in tough negotiations with Amazon themselves. Because collective bargaining results in a net decrease in value because of moral hazards, perverse incentives, and agent-principal problems.

These kinds of arguments are only ever applied to workers. Nobody argues that a company having a single legal team that represents all of its managers and sets org-wide hiring policies is anti-efficiency. If you negotiate with a publicly traded company, you are engaging in collective bargaining, because public companies are collectives that represent the multiple interests of multiple stakeholders during negotiations…

> These kinds of arguments are only ever applied to workers.

Nonsense, people insisted that it was foolish to require bundling of routine insurance with catastrophic insurance, people advocate for the severability of hardward and operating systems, people oppose forced bundling of insurance and all kinds of other goods.

> Nobody argues that a company having a single legal team that represents all of its managers and sets org-wide hiring policies is anti-efficiency.

They would however observe that that single legal team only protects the company, and that each employee should have their own, individual legal representation for their own personal liability.

> If you negotiate with a publicly traded company, you are engaging in collective bargaining, because public companies are collectives that represent the multiple interests of multiple stakeholders during negotiations.

This doesn’t offer a counterpoint to my point.

> Nobody argues that companies are anti-value because they restrict my freedom to negotiate a separate contract with every single member of the company's board. But suddenly it's different if the workers do the same thing.

I think the comparison here has been twisted so far beyond the breaking point that there is no need of a rebuttal.

Re: Amazon's anti-union site for its Alabama warehouse

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These kinds of arguments are only ever applied to workers. Nobody argues that a company having a single legal team that represents all of its managers and sets org-wide hiring policies is anti-efficiency. If you negotiate with a publicly traded company, you are engaging in collective bargaining, because public companies are collectives that represent the multiple interests of multiple stakeholders during negotiations…

> These kinds of arguments are only ever applied to workers. Nonsense, people insisted that it was foolish to require bundling of routine insurance with catastrophic insurance, people advocate for the severability of hardward and operating systems, people oppose forced bundling of insurance and all kinds of other goods. > Nobody argues that a company having a single legal team that represents all of its managers and…

> people insisted that it was foolish to require bundling of routine insurance with catastrophic insurance, people advocate for the severability of hardware and operating systems, people oppose forced bundling of insurance and all kinds of other goods.

None of that is collective bargaining.

> This doesn’t offer a counterpoint to my point.

One comment earlier: "Because collective bargaining results in a net decrease in value"

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