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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#171

Post by irrational »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of dollars in my retirement fund by the time I retire (I already have over a million). That plus social security should take take care of my retirement. I have a very comfortable job. I live about a 15 minute leisurely bike ride from campus. I work 20-30 hours a week. My company doesn’t track my hours and as long as I get me assignments done everyone is happy. I can take up to 6 weeks of vacation a year plus 10 more fixed holidays that everyone gets. My health benefits are frankly amazing and cheap. On top of all of that I receive a very healthy six figure salary. There are many hundreds of developers at my company that are similarly blessed. My point is that it is possible to receive a very good salary while still receiving many of the benefits you claim.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#172

Post by tolbish »

novok wrote: post #72
tolbish wrote: post #5

Careful what you wish for. The US has no guaranteed paternity/maternity leave, and the majority of workplaces have less than a month of vacation time. Then there is the healthcare system.

The american average vacation time is not the reality at tech firms. I easily get 1 month or more of vacation working at a large one. Same with 3-6mo+parental leave being very common along with fairly decent healthcare because your employed by a wealthy company. Things that are not good for the average american is not the reality for the average big-tech software engineer and you have to compare apples to apples.

The average among technical workers is around 15 days/year according to the BLS. Where are you getting your data from?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#173

Post by ricardobeat »

aaomidi wrote: post #138
arcticbull wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

The salaries aren't low because of equality though. You're just shifting the high earners from the people doing the work to the managers of the people doing the work.

As far as my experience goes, managers make about the same, or less, as an engineer at a similar experience level. They may end up at a higher compensation level if far enough in the career ladder, but I don't think it's significant in the bigger picture. The average CEO earnings in the Netherlands, including bonuses, is only 5x-6x the average engineer salary.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#174

Post by terwey »

nackerhewz wrote: post #148
distribot wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of surprised by the idea of saving nothing for your children. Is it a symptom of the dog eat dog American system of capitalism that it seems kinda wild to me? I guess if you can be certain that their fundamental needs will be met, it isn't as important. But in the US your life can be pretty crap, even if not abject developing world style poverty.

It's because most people in Europe don't really make enough to do so. Also if you somehow manage to increase your income, over half of it disappears in taxes and social security contributions.

Denmark and the Netherlands have the highest income tax bracket at 52/53%. Germany is 43%. However they are stacked taxes.

In Germany (where I reside), the first €9744 (2021) is untaxed, then 14% until a certain amount (can't find it atm) and max 43%. However, if you do your tax returns your effective tax rate will drop significantly. I'd wager that most pay around 25% in total income taxes, excluding things like the health insurance and other taxes.

However, we indeed do not worry about saving up money to put our kids through school.

Earning 65k which what most companies in the tech scene now offer to lure them in as a SWE in Germany is a great salary realistically, considering for example an architect with a masters degree will earn around 55k and no real improvement in sight.

Also don't forget to factor in that the concept of being fired for PROPER reason is nearly impossible in most European countries. Even if an employer hits hard times they cannot just lay off an entire department to quickly green out the numbers in the books, there needs to be proper grounds. I currently need to give my employer 3 months notice before I can even leave, same goes for them to me.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#175

Post by LogicWolfe »

topkai22 wrote: post #124

I unfortunately don’t have much perspective on software development on Europe, but one of the differentiators I’ve observed in the US between high salary SWE jobs/regions and lower SWE jobs/regions is that engineered in the higher categories are considered a core part of the business and are deeply integrated across the business. The engineers sit closer to and interact more with the “money people” than in companies…

This explanation does a great job of describing what I've seen in Australia. I moved here from San Francisco after working at several startups including a long stint at Airbnb. I've been consistently stunned by how peripheral software is to businesses here. In the bay area organizations are structured around how they build technology and see it as a key point of competition. Here it's viewed as a cost center and usually outsourced to consulting firms who integrate some semi-generalized third party solution.

This isn't universal, there are startups here that "get it". But it's ubiquitous in large companies that have money, and that drives the salary market.

It seems inevitable that this will change in time either by the old guard catching up or new companies displacing them. I think one of the key driving forces behind this could be the return home of people with experience from SV style companies. As they join companies or start their own they are likely to advocate for approaches that more strongly couple the organization to its technology.

In the Canadian startup circles I once inhabited this was a broadly accepted idea. Seeing people move to the US for high paying tech jobs was generally celebrated, because there was an expectation that many of them would eventually return and be a boost to the overall ecosystem.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#176

Post by mciancia »

iso1631 wrote: post #69
trcollinson wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make pretty good money as a consultant. Last year I had 180 hours of saved vacation time (4.5 weeks). I gave up 115.5 hours of that on January 1 because I didn't use it. I expect I will lose a similar amount on next January 1st. I did get 6 federal holidays off. I used a bit of vacation to also take the day after Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas, and New Year's Eve off. I paid $8400 in insurance premiums for…

$200k is £146k I've seen mid-level tech jobs in London banks for £146k which come with 34 days off including state holidays like new years day, christmas, etc £146k for a full time contractor on 226 days a year isn't that much at all - £650 a day, which is in the "Senior developer" range [0] With 30% tax in the US and the cost of health insurance, that would be $68,400 For a staff employee on £146k (which is quite ac…

Yes, you can earn $200k in EU. But usually on very senior role/as contractor while in US you can get that kind of offer from FANG just out of university. I would assume that people who can get $200k in EU could get a ton more in US

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#177

Post by nackerhewz »

dom96 wrote: post #145
nackerhewz wrote: post #134

One way things might become more competitive is when more people become freelancers. The freelance market is more volatile than the rigidly regulated traditional labor markets allowing for larger pay increases during good times (and also decreases during bad times), in general, it approaches a more realistic compensation of real added value. Personally I've greatly benefited from becoming a freelancer in Europe and h…

Do you or somebody else in this thread have some tips for those of us who never freelanced but would be interested in giving it a shot? What’s the best way to get started?

Start by defining your rate. Find out how much you cost to your current employer (including any additional costs and taxes your employment incurs which you never get to see), add at least 10% for shifting risk towards yourself (e.g. when you get ill the employer doesn't need to pay, cheap to fire you, etc.). Try to read up on some taxation basics and try to understand what your net income would be.

Don't worry about not being good enough for freelancing, there's a market for juniors as well, it's all reflected in the rate.

Start looking for contracts: e.g. just search for "reactjs contract london". You'll find some stuff, but keep in mind most contracts never even get published as the recruiters also have people on call. See how the rates align with what you have in mind, note which skills you know are in high demand, make a list of companies that are involved, contact their recruiters through linkedin by sending your CV and rate, say you're a starting contractor so you need a bit of time to set things up. They will understand, everybody has to start. Things move pretty quickly in that world, once you have a contract, contact an accountant and set up your business and off you go.

You might want to be a bit more flexible (e.g. in terms of location) in the beginning just so you can get started. Once you're up and running, things move by themselves. Keep in mind you'll probably be poor during the first year because you have to upfront taxes and things like that.

Don't let them push your rate down too much, rates are negotiable but keep in mind the customer will probably be paying an already agreed upon rate and you're just giving the recruiters more rent for doing nothing.

If you become a tax hacker you can _really_ optimize your income, don't expect accountants to do an exceptional job for you. Tax systems aren't that different from a quirky legacy code base you can hack around in. Talking to people who are also interested in that might help as well, some people are real tax nerds.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#178

Post by ClumsyPilot »

betaby wrote: post #152
arcticbull wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inequality in Canada is substantially lower than in America (and is on par with Australia, and between Fr and Se). This is evidenced in their Gini coefficients. [1] - Gini for SE is 0.25 - Gini for FR is 0.31 - Gini for CA is 0.33 - Gini for US is 0.48 - Gini for ZA is 0.65 I've also included South Africa for comparison, one of the least equal societies on earth. A photo of what a 0.65 Gini country looks like is here…

From your link, GINI of Canada and Tajikistan is the same or Finland and Azerbaijan. Totalitarian states like Belarus or Kazakhstan have one of the lowest GINIs in the world, now I question gini usefulness even more.

Trives of neanderthals were very equal too.

Obviously you have to compare apples to apples

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#179

Post by [deleted] »

nackerhewz wrote: post #156
arcticbull wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's not a great way to raise the salaries of retail and restaurant workers. It's also a terrible way of providing healthcare. Ultimately it's more a question of supply and demand as to why US SWEs are paid so much.

The SWEs will buy more stuff and eat out more, increasing the demand for retail and restaurant workers. It does trickle down, but due to continuous influx (because qualification requirements are low) of new potential retail and restaurant workers you don't notice on an individual level but on a globalized level it matters because those new retail/restaurant workers have improved themselves.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#180

Post by ABeeSea »

terwey wrote: post #174
nackerhewz wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because most people in Europe don't really make enough to do so. Also if you somehow manage to increase your income, over half of it disappears in taxes and social security contributions.

Denmark and the Netherlands have the highest income tax bracket at 52/53%. Germany is 43%. However they are stacked taxes. In Germany (where I reside), the first €9744 (2021) is untaxed, then 14% until a certain amount (can't find it atm) and max 43%. However, if you do your tax returns your effective tax rate will drop significantly. I'd wager that most pay around 25% in total income taxes, excluding things like the…

Except for financially dubious start-ups, getting laid off at a tech company comes with a fairly nice severance package. Dropbox, for example, is giving 3 months salary, Q1 equity, and 100% of 2020 bonuses.
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