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China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

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Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#171

Post by brabel »

marcinzm wrote: post #117
echelon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As much as people in the West praise CCP's economic rise Who is praising the CCP's economic rise? The American consensus as far as I can tell is that we need to shut them out and push them into decline. The West should brain drain the best and brightest from China.

>Who is praising the CCP's economic rise? A majority of Americans until relatively recently? China was seen favorably by most Americans until the last decade. An economic world power that we should strengthen relations with if polls are to be believed. For example: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/10/06/unfavorable-vi...

We need to get things straight: everyone should praise the rise of Chinese people's living standards, which has been astonishing in the last 45 years or so, and has taken 850 million people out of poverty[0]! This is not something a reasonable person can argue against! The increase in human wellbeing in the whole planet has been almost entirely due to the Chinese in the last 50 years.

That doest' mean we should praise the CCP (at least not in its current form!), though. Far from it!! Now that people have a decent life standard, they should, and probably will, raise against injustices being committed by the governing party.

Maybe they don't want a democracy modelled on the West, and that's ok!! We need to understand that there may be other ways to govern a country as big as China. But everyone in China definitely wants to be given a fair go to live their lives as best as they can, and to have at least a level of freedom that lets them live a happy life without causing problems to others (after the last few days, even the most avid defender of free speech in the US seems to agree a level of moderation in the public discourse is required, the only point of disagreement seems to be in how much).

It is really painful to see China moving back to authoritarianism in this way after a couple of decades in which it looked like they were embracing, slowly but surely, more freedoms and human rights. Let's hope that they find a way out of this instead of incessantly criticising them as if they were the devil all the time!! I honestly believe that even the CCP highest party members want to see the improvement of the Chinese people's lives, it would be completely irrational to believe otherwise... they are just humans like all of us... the problem cannot that they are evil!! The problem is that they have misguided fears of what may happen if the people is given too much freedom and try to mercilessly prevent their fears from becoming reality (like, you know, a revolutionary government taking power by force, which is the worse that could happen anywhere, even in China).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#172

Post by mijkal »

potiuper wrote: post #151
f430 wrote: post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

The USA is not a democracy it is a federal republic. Anyone who disagrees needs to recite the US pledge of allegiance, and review the US constitution. China is also a republic. But, neither of the two dominant USA parties currently espouse the Marxist Leninist doctrine.

'Democracy' and 'republic' are not mutually exclusive concepts. The US has a democratic|representative|constitutional|federal republic.

It's quite disturbing to see an uptick in this claim in the recent years, as if democracy in principle is not American and ought be discarded in favor of a more illiberal system of governance.

(Also, the pledge is not law, so it's a curious reference to cite as some authority on the matter.)

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#173

Post by agumonkey »

emteycz wrote: post #140
marcinzm wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Who is praising the CCP's economic rise? A majority of Americans until relatively recently? China was seen favorably by most Americans until the last decade. An economic world power that we should strengthen relations with if polls are to be believed. For example: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/10/06/unfavorable-vi...

It was a very different country 10 years ago. It was comparable to the EU (I lived in both).

What propelled such a quick and strong change ?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#174

Post by umeshunni »

star-trek-fleet wrote: post #36
xyzelement wrote: post #10

I was thinking about nationalization separately from this. The west has invested a lot into the Chinese economy hoping to translate the corresponding equity into growth. I wonder if the Chinese are really long term interested in honoring the equity. Meaning - take the money now, grow the businesses and the economy and then at some point say "It's stupid that we're letting foreigners have 20% (or whatever) ownership o…

> The west has invested a lot into the Chinese economy hoping to translate the corresponding equity into growth Chinese people are jointly invest in that venture, by (not limited to): * Sacrifice family and personal time, by hundreds of millions of passent migration workers. * Sacrifice health and life quality, even today 996 still a norm, and you can imagine what have been since the opening up * Environment, early p…

> At the top, it was CCP and Western capitalists grabbed most of the profit, but leaving the waste to be suffered by the people.

That framing seems disingenuous given that per capita income in China has increased something like 10x in the last few decades and hundreds of millions have been lifted out of poverty.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#175

Post by Barrin92 »

foobarian wrote: post #70
Barrin92 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US p…

Would love some pointers to read up on. I am imagining something that talks about how provincial governments work, any factions at play, day-to-day politics of getting things to happen whether by official process or informal etc.

I second scarmig's recommendation of Bill Bishop's blog, it's a great resource and he publishes free pieces regularly so you don't need to subscribe. Another great free resources is the sinica podcast. I also recommend following Dan Wang's blog, he works at Gavekal Dragonomics and generally writes in-depth about manufacturing and the semiconductor industry in China, but also China more broadly. His recent post at the end of the year might be a good start. 'Reading the China Dream' is another good source, mostly commenting on and making accessible Chinese intellectual debates.

https://supchina.com/series/sinica/

https://danwang.co/2020-letter/

https://www.readingthechinadream.com/

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#176

Post by dragonelite »

tshaddox wrote: post #155
thewarrior wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. It isn’t really a credible source.

Are there any sources reporting on China's domestic policies that don't have deep ties to either China or US agencies?

The Foreign policy magazine did a nice series around xmass, about how much the US had corrupted the communist part. The very reason Xi did his purging rounds to cut away the US influence from China.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/22/china-us-data-intellige...

Edit: misread your comment but the series is quiet good, not what you asked for tho from a neutral source.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#177

Post by Aunche »

xyzelement wrote: post #10

I was thinking about nationalization separately from this. The west has invested a lot into the Chinese economy hoping to translate the corresponding equity into growth. I wonder if the Chinese are really long term interested in honoring the equity. Meaning - take the money now, grow the businesses and the economy and then at some point say "It's stupid that we're letting foreigners have 20% (or whatever) ownership o…

> "It's stupid that we're letting foreigners have 20% (or whatever) ownership of our economy" and just deem it illegal / confiscate that equity.

That would be a very dumb move since they own over a trillion dollars of US debt.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#178

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

f430 wrote: post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

What benefit does the CCP get by owning Alibaba and Ant? Can't the CCP do whatever it wants anyway? Why does it need to own these companies?

And aren't there a lot of negatives by taking over the largest IPO in history only a few months later???

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#179

Post by qqqwerty »

potiuper wrote: post #151
f430 wrote: post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

The USA is not a democracy it is a federal republic. Anyone who disagrees needs to recite the US pledge of allegiance, and review the US constitution. China is also a republic. But, neither of the two dominant USA parties currently espouse the Marxist Leninist doctrine.

An apple is not round, it is red.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#180

Post by jogundas »

vkou wrote: post #121
jcytong wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: How does one get educated about modern China? (I'm Chinese but mostly Western educated) Having seen my grandparents/parents/relatives escaping communist China and now my generation escaping HK, it has heavily influenced me on how even people who identified as Chinese and hoping for democracy and freedom for their own cousins in China are being played and lied to for multiple decades. My people in HK…

I am not from China, but I am from Russia. Western posturing and brinksmanship isn't going to bring about any meaningful change. It's been tried for seventy years against the USSR, with no effect [1]. All that a foreign enemy (that loudly proclaims their belligerence) does is unite people behind shitty leaders. (As we have seen in Western democracies when their governments are more concerned with blaming external ene…

Your point [1] argues that the USSR collapsed due to internal reasons only. I believe that it is an oversimplification.

Cooperation with totalitarian states often prolong their existence. An example that comes to mind is the US subsidizing grain being sold to the USSR and thus preventing starvation, which would have arguably led to a collapse of the communist regime [a].

However, it is also possible to encourage the "feedback loop" that you mention by merely demonstrating the alternatives that are out there. Radio from the other side of the Iron Curtain [b] gave hope to many people in the USSR.

To sum up, thoughtful action from the outside can help bring down totalitarian regimes faster.

[a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Grain_Robbery [b] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America#Cold_War

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