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Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

hongkongwatch.org

171–179 of 179 posts

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

china probably wouldnt mind burning Versailles n Buckingham to the ground, recovering taiwan. then taking over hawaii and returning it 100 years later.

The history of the region is far more complicated of course, you’re neglecting that Macau wasn’t lost in a war. It was leased as a trading post. There’s no reason to believe that the contiguous border China would like to espouse is either historically fair or reasonable today. Macau is more like St Pierre and Miquelon or Point Roberts. It’s governed under the same terms as HK. It’s also unclear why Taiwan should be “…

of their quarrels with the rest of the world. to the chinese. i think taiwan is the least negotiable. they're not done yet, their revolutionary war.

we can of course disagree with china. but ignoring what they want is...i don't know...naive?

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#172
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we reserve the right on when to focus on the political or non political aspect This is a perfect illustration of the privilege I was talking about, thank you.

You seem to believe you’ve found some absolute truths: “everything is political“, “disagreement implies privilege“. These systems of logic absolve you of: seeing the gradients of truth, making real efforts in understanding a situation, asking questions, and making up your own mind.

Gradients of truth? If one side says the election was affected by voter fraud and the other side says it wasn't, it's not some enlightened path to say "both sides have a point, so there must have been a little bit of fraud". Sometimes one side is just wrong, either by an honest mistake or by active bad faith.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mostly CCP propaganda though if you actually talk to HK people and see how the majority of them tried to work within the system to "make the change" since the early 90s and fight for what was promised in the Basic Law[1] which was drafted by a committee with 36 representatives from China and 23 from HK. It promised that the Chief Executive of HK and its legislative council to be formed by an election.[2] The Chi…

There are two sides of coin in HK. People who supported violent protestors and people who didn’t. Like any other society some support govt and some do not. People who support govt and not protestors their shops, restaurants, businesses vandalised and were constantly harassed. It became politically impossible to voice against the protestors due to fear of violence, know this first hand not by talking but living throug…

> It’s the vehement majority of Hong Kong people who gave rights to reinterpret Basic Law to stem the flow of people from mainland China (since court of final appeal was going to allow spouses and children of Hong Kong residents from other parts of China to settle in HK)

> So in HK people got what they asked for and also majority Chinese supported this action on HK. So like any democracy like USA and India a law which appease majority pass easily same happened here.

Both statements are false. The first reinterpretation of the Basic Law on the right of adobe in 1999 wasn’t the result of ANY DEMOCRATIC PROCESS involving the majority of Hong Kongers.

Some polls may show that a large fraction of Hong Kongers prefer the RESULTING VERDICT on right of adobe, but the reinterpretation is unlike any democratic process as in the US or India, that has a rigorous and formal voting process. And certainly not a majority of Hong Kongers support repeated interpretations of the basic law by people not directly elected in Hong Kong.

The end doesn’t justify the means. You have confused the end and the means.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MAD basically assures no hot war Wait, wait, wait. That's not a fact, and in fact a known piece of propaganda. First. Even, an all out nuclear exchange in between superpowers, in an unrealistic scenario without counterstrikes, and zero nuclear attrition, a superpower like US, Russia, or China will "only" loose a low single digits of population. Communist countries not only wouldn't hesitate to do so, but have a his…

America has enough nukes to take out every population center in Asia before the day end tomorrow. It’s sad but true that nuclear power is so incredible that people haven’t dared move against it.

That was not possible even with cold war number of missiles in service, let alone now.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#175
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: your link - Could you point me specifically to what you were referencing as part of saying "China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP"? Thanks in advance. The way to slow China's growth most efficiently is through economics; it's not the people of China that we want growth to slow for, the purpose and intent is to take power away from the CCP - to free the people of China, as in America and other Democ…

As mentioned in earlier comments Chinese system will collapse if people of China do not want it, live there to really understand how it works. Please read the history of China it has more revolutions than USA. CCP cannot function without the support of majority of people like a democratic system. It just works in a different way probably watch the video in the link it’s a good explanation [1]. Chinese system is diffe…

So you yourself are insinuating, you believe that without the control-oppression-censorship systems of the CCP, that the Chinese people are weak, weak-minded, and incapable of re-organizing on their own? I disagree with that wholly. I believe the Chinese people could thrive even more greatly than the status quo that the CCP is controlling for - especially the Uighurs. The CCP is keeping people in check, in line, forcing them to support the current system - they don't have a choice to not support it - so there's no choice of "not wanting it." It's forced consensus, where you if you don't agree with the current system then you're sent to "re-education camps." I don't understand how you're able to conclude what you do if you know of these control-oppression-censorship systems of the CCP - unless you've been brainwashed/indoctrinated to believe they do not exist - and the failsafe to preventing these types of actions of a potential tyrant/tyranny from forming, is to prevent the government from controlling and suppressing free speech - because then they have the ability to speak the truth.

If you truly believed the Chinese people were strong, capable, if you truly believed the CCP system would be what the majority of Chinese people would want (once their fear is diminished) the CCP's control in place, then the CCP should become a Democratic nation where people can vote - where you trust your people, and the current government not have fear or fear their people. In fact the reason there isn't a voting system is the CCP knows that their citizens wouldn't vote the CCP in, and whatever truths they're trying to keep hidden will be able to come to light - whether the majority of those truths are relatively benign or malicious in nature, I don't know - whether the CCP keeps records of all of their behaviours or not, I don't know either.

Tyranny of majority? That's not tyranny. If the majority of people vote in a legitimate, fair polling with adequate systems in place to make sure there isn't cheating/fraud - then the direction of who they voted for is what the majority want and policy will be changed/evolve based on whomever is currently in power. This is in fact a feature of Democracy, not a bug. Voting is literally polling to see the state of the union and what people's current beliefs and understanding of everything is, to understand how they're doing personally - are they suffering, are they thriving, etc; it's like a Litmus test to see where on the spectrum of abundance vs. scarcity mindset they are, state of health vs. dis-ease state.

Re: "So unless democratic system can really save its minority they can’t be on higher ground" - Yes, yes they can be on higher ground - and that happens because ultimately the government, party - the group of people/politicians who's policy and policy proposals align with the benefit of EVERYONE in the population - not just those who voted them into power will result in a higher quality of life for EVERYONE; the party who wins power, gets into government, and who attempts to punish or suffocate their non-voters (Republicans/Trump and party who clearly, multiple times attempted to harm Democratic voting states) is the opposite of this, and will cause non-voters and other citizens to start voting, the impetus will exist and strengthen because their suffering and ability to survive is lessening to a degree that they realize the system needs change, a course correction for the ship called America.

"Also if one needs over a billon dollar to fight election and win top positions" - Indeed, you're correct but Democracy is evolving and the duopoly that has formed due to current policy can be EASILY broken apart with the correct policies; Andrew Yang, who was a Presidential candidate, and his core policies are what will lead to the duopoly to break apart - along with disempowering the few mainstream media channels the majority of Americans watch: Democracy Dollars, Journalism Dollars, Ranked Choice Voting, and Freedom Dividend/Universal Basic Income - I'd urge you to research those policy proposals and read his book, if you're genuinely interested in understanding how Democracy is a better system; it's highly unlikely I'd be able to even have this discussion with you in China, or at least once I gain a large enough following to worry the CCP then I'd be punished God only knows how. Andrew Yang's book is called The War On Normal People.

The problem with your final paragraph is that the CCP will prevent/ban/block ideas and efforts, say in book form, that would present and provide a better solution than what the CCP is allowing. I don't know if you're arguing in bad faith or gaslighting, or you just haven't thought this through fully to include into your thinking how the CCP would influence such things to prevent change? Can you at minimum agree the CCP does ban/suppress certain speech and ideas - and I can easily be blocked if I was to try to present to the Chinese people a better system than their existing one? Do you actually believe the CCP would allow this?

I'd really love to continue this conversation after you've read Andrew Yang's policy proposals. I'm curious what resistance you may have with them, and I'd be happy to make clarifications or correct misunderstands of the policies if I see that you're misinterpreting something in them.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#176
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to believe you’ve found some absolute truths: “everything is political“, “disagreement implies privilege“. These systems of logic absolve you of: seeing the gradients of truth, making real efforts in understanding a situation, asking questions, and making up your own mind.

Gradients of truth? If one side says the election was affected by voter fraud and the other side says it wasn't, it's not some enlightened path to say "both sides have a point, so there must have been a little bit of fraud". Sometimes one side is just wrong, either by an honest mistake or by active bad faith.

Some amount of voter fraud can swing an election. You could instead have more fraud in the direction that simply reenforces results. Is that more or less of a fraud problem? Creating fictional voting entities is highly problematic. Casting a vote a second after polls officially close is less problematic. It is enlightened to remember there are no absolutes. This allows one to see nuance rather than believing the only choices are no-fraud or fraud.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two sides of coin in HK. People who supported violent protestors and people who didn’t. Like any other society some support govt and some do not. People who support govt and not protestors their shops, restaurants, businesses vandalised and were constantly harassed. It became politically impossible to voice against the protestors due to fear of violence, know this first hand not by talking but living throug…

> It’s the vehement majority of Hong Kong people who gave rights to reinterpret Basic Law to stem the flow of people from mainland China (since court of final appeal was going to allow spouses and children of Hong Kong residents from other parts of China to settle in HK) > So in HK people got what they asked for and also majority Chinese supported this action on HK. So like any democracy like USA and India a law whic…

> The first reinterpretation of the Basic Law on the right of adobe in 1999

You mean Hong Kong people wholeheartedly supported the spouses and Children to settle in Hong Kong from other parts of China in millions?

Even if you support violent protestors please don't be double face, even during one year of protests there was a constant call for throwing people from other parts of China back to China from Hong Kong, they were called locusts and what not.

The reinterpretation had a majority support of Hong Kong people and they liked that Tung Chee Hwa was able to stem the flow (instead of court of final appeal which in earlier ruling allowed spouses and childrent to settle in HK) and make it limited to 150 people / day instead of over million moving to HK.

> Democratic Process

Hong Kong is not a democracy, UK never granted it autonomy and always controlled it with appointed chief executive. With handover at least China made the committee which selected the chief executive. So not sure which is more democratic an appointed head by UK or a person elected by people from various sections of society (although it's flawed as most or rich and has allegiance to China, but it's still better than what UK had in Hong Kong).

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s the vehement majority of Hong Kong people who gave rights to reinterpret Basic Law to stem the flow of people from mainland China (since court of final appeal was going to allow spouses and children of Hong Kong residents from other parts of China to settle in HK) > So in HK people got what they asked for and also majority Chinese supported this action on HK. So like any democracy like USA and India a law whic…

> The first reinterpretation of the Basic Law on the right of adobe in 1999 You mean Hong Kong people wholeheartedly supported the spouses and Children to settle in Hong Kong from other parts of China in millions? Even if you support violent protestors please don't be double face, even during one year of protests there was a constant call for throwing people from other parts of China back to China from Hong Kong, the…

> reinterpretation had a majority support of Hong Kong people

Source for your claim?

Contrary to your claim, “The Democratic Party strongly believes that reinterpretation of the Basic Law by the NPCSC is unacceptable” https://books.google.com/books?id=1nccBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA348&lpg=...

> UK never granted it autonomy and always controlled it with appointed chief executive

UK didn’t grant democracy to Hong Kong because of the threat from China. China is to blame, not UK.

Quotes from https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...

> beginning in the 1950s, the colonial governors who ran Hong Kong repeatedly sought to introduce popular elections but abandoned those efforts in the face of pressure by Communist Party leaders in Beijing.

> Chinese leaders were so opposed to the prospect of a democratic Hong Kong that they threatened to invade should London attempt to change the status quo.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont understand. Both ear sides want to win. If loosing side has nuclear weapons, they will use them eith the goal to win. Why would they NOT use it?

There are different degrees to losing a war. The end result of losing a conventional war could be (IMO "would be") much better than the result for that same side if it let loose nukes. A direct war between two nuclear powers need not lead to the use of nuclear weapons. Of course it's only rational to fear such a result.

If tou could give an example (hipothetical scenario), maybe I would get what you mean.

How I see it. Let's say, russia dared to enter a real multi-battle direct war with usa, to take alaska, and is winning a bit more each day. When would usa say "we give up, please take the alaska, we will not use our nukes?". - Immediately after the start while there are no casualties? - after 1k casualties on both sides? - after going to total war mode, when each side bombs industry complex'es and later cities on the other side?

Backing down would say "nukes are not deterant anymore. Same thing can be done to us again."

btw. Nukes can be used, not only on cities, but also on fleets and divisionsand camps.

So the only way nukes would be not used if victory would be very instantaneous and total, which does not seem probable.

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