Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

lore.kernel.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 205 posts

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#171

Post by tutfbhuf »

pjmlp wrote: post #168
hnlmorg wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "A microkernel would be a good fit for such constrainted environments." As the GP said, micro kernels have a performance overhead swapping data between rings. That overhead would bite hard on something running a NEC VR4300 clocked at 93.75 MHz. A monolithic kernel is the way to go. Just not Linux specifically. > My argument is that the linux kernel (even if you strip everything out and create the most tiny linux ke…

Nintendo actual devices use microkernel based designs. We are way past the usual FUD against microkernels.

> Nintendo actual devices use microkernel based designs

That's very interesting, can you provide a source?

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#172

Post by laumars »

pjmlp wrote: post #168
hnlmorg wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "A microkernel would be a good fit for such constrainted environments." As the GP said, micro kernels have a performance overhead swapping data between rings. That overhead would bite hard on something running a NEC VR4300 clocked at 93.75 MHz. A monolithic kernel is the way to go. Just not Linux specifically. > My argument is that the linux kernel (even if you strip everything out and create the most tiny linux ke…

Nintendo actual devices use microkernel based designs. We are way past the usual FUD against microkernels.

It’s believed Nintendos consoles use a micro kernel but that’s a result of hacks and reverse engineering. However Nintendo themselves have given limited information. While I think your point is more likely than not, that caveat I’m making is still worth noting; ie things aren’t as certain as you’re boldly claiming.

Now on to your point about the complaint the GP and myself made being FUD; it’s really not. The closest to a monolithic kernels performance any micro kernel has gotten was L4 and those benchmarks was running Linux on top of L4 vs bare metal Linux. While the work on L4 is massively impressive there is still a big caveat, the actual workload was still effectively ran on a monolithic kernel with L4 acting like a hypervisor. So most of the advantages that a micro kernel offers were rendered moot and there was still a small performance hit for it.

Why doesn’t that matter for the Nintendo Switch? Probably because any DRM countermeasures in user space would have a bigger performance penalty and a micro kernel offers some protections there as part of the design. That’s just a guess but as I opened with, Nintendo are quite secretive about their system software so it’s hard to make the kind of conclusive arguments you like to claim.

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#173

Post by tutfbhuf »

laumars wrote: post #172
pjmlp wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nintendo actual devices use microkernel based designs. We are way past the usual FUD against microkernels.

It’s believed Nintendos consoles use a micro kernel but that’s a result of hacks and reverse engineering. However Nintendo themselves have given limited information. While I think your point is more likely than not, that caveat I’m making is still worth noting; ie things aren’t as certain as you’re boldly claiming. Now on to your point about the complaint the GP and myself made being FUD; it’s really not. The closest…

Even if unconfirmed, I think that Nintendo might use Microkernels according to reverse engeneering finds shows their massive potential for constrained devices. Although certainly not for performance reasons.

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#174

Post by pjmlp »

laumars wrote: post #172
pjmlp wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nintendo actual devices use microkernel based designs. We are way past the usual FUD against microkernels.

It’s believed Nintendos consoles use a micro kernel but that’s a result of hacks and reverse engineering. However Nintendo themselves have given limited information. While I think your point is more likely than not, that caveat I’m making is still worth noting; ie things aren’t as certain as you’re boldly claiming. Now on to your point about the complaint the GP and myself made being FUD; it’s really not. The closest…

You just need to get the information the same way I did,

https://developer.nintendo.com/

Other than that I can only point out the CCC related

Also given the amount of hypervisor and container baggage that gets placed on top of Linux to make for the lack of microkernel like safety, it doesn't really matter if it happens to win a couple of micro-benchmarks.

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#175

Post by pjmlp »

tutfbhuf wrote: post #171
pjmlp wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nintendo actual devices use microkernel based designs. We are way past the usual FUD against microkernels.

> Nintendo actual devices use microkernel based designs That's very interesting, can you provide a source?

Outside my NDA (https://developer.nintendo.com/) only the CCC related talk.

https://media.ccc.de/v/c4.openchaos.2018.06.glitching-the-sw...

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#176

Post by laumars »

pjmlp wrote: post #174
laumars wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s believed Nintendos consoles use a micro kernel but that’s a result of hacks and reverse engineering. However Nintendo themselves have given limited information. While I think your point is more likely than not, that caveat I’m making is still worth noting; ie things aren’t as certain as you’re boldly claiming. Now on to your point about the complaint the GP and myself made being FUD; it’s really not. The closest…

You just need to get the information the same way I did, https://developer.nintendo.com/ Other than that I can only point out the CCC related Also given the amount of hypervisor and container baggage that gets placed on top of Linux to make for the lack of microkernel like safety, it doesn't really matter if it happens to win a couple of micro-benchmarks.

Nintendo don’t publish detailed schematics of their systems to the level that you’re claiming. Not even on their developers portal. (I’ve had developer account with Nintendo since the Wii days).

And with regards to your point about Linux vs micro kernels, it does make a massive difference when you’re talking about hardware like the N64 which wouldn’t want any of those features which micro kernels excel at and which every instruction wasted is going to cost the user experience heavily. This point was made abundantly clear at the start of the conversation as well.

Look, I have nothing against micro kernels. There’s an architectual beauty to them which I really like. It’s the functional programming equivalent of kernel design. But pragmatically it wouldn’t be your silver bullet in the very specific context we were discussing (re N64). And to be honest I’m sick of you pulling these pathetic straw man arguments in every thread you post on.

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#177

Post by laumars »

tutfbhuf wrote: post #173
laumars wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s believed Nintendos consoles use a micro kernel but that’s a result of hacks and reverse engineering. However Nintendo themselves have given limited information. While I think your point is more likely than not, that caveat I’m making is still worth noting; ie things aren’t as certain as you’re boldly claiming. Now on to your point about the complaint the GP and myself made being FUD; it’s really not. The closest…

Even if unconfirmed, I think that Nintendo might use Microkernels according to reverse engeneering finds shows their massive potential for constrained devices. Although certainly not for performance reasons.

> Even if unconfirmed, I think that Nintendo might use Microkernels according to reverse engeneering finds

That was literally what I said :)

> shows their massive potential for constrained devices. Although certainly not for performance reasons

Games consoles are about as far removed from a constrained device as you could possibly get.

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#178

Post by [deleted] »

tutfbhuf wrote: post #173
laumars wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s believed Nintendos consoles use a micro kernel but that’s a result of hacks and reverse engineering. However Nintendo themselves have given limited information. While I think your point is more likely than not, that caveat I’m making is still worth noting; ie things aren’t as certain as you’re boldly claiming. Now on to your point about the complaint the GP and myself made being FUD; it’s really not. The closest…

Even if unconfirmed, I think that Nintendo might use Microkernels according to reverse engeneering finds shows their massive potential for constrained devices. Although certainly not for performance reasons.

[deleted]

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#179

Post by tutfbhuf »

laumars wrote: post #177
tutfbhuf wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if unconfirmed, I think that Nintendo might use Microkernels according to reverse engeneering finds shows their massive potential for constrained devices. Although certainly not for performance reasons.

> Even if unconfirmed, I think that Nintendo might use Microkernels according to reverse engeneering finds That was literally what I said :) > shows their massive potential for constrained devices. Although certainly not for performance reasons Games consoles are about as far removed from a constrained device as you could possibly get.

> Games consoles are about as far removed from a constrained device as you could possibly get.

It seems to me that you are always ignore low-end devices and very old devices.

If we are talking about an PS5 then yes, this and similar devices are not very constrained, even a full blown Kubuntu might run on some.

But, again there are low-end gaming devices with a tiny black and white screen for 10 dollars and old gaming hardware with very tight constrains. The N64 is certainly one of those constrained old gaming devices.

Re: New Linux port for the Nintendo 64

#180

Post by pjmlp »

laumars wrote: post #176
pjmlp wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just need to get the information the same way I did, https://developer.nintendo.com/ Other than that I can only point out the CCC related Also given the amount of hypervisor and container baggage that gets placed on top of Linux to make for the lack of microkernel like safety, it doesn't really matter if it happens to win a couple of micro-benchmarks.

Nintendo don’t publish detailed schematics of their systems to the level that you’re claiming. Not even on their developers portal. (I’ve had developer account with Nintendo since the Wii days). And with regards to your point about Linux vs micro kernels, it does make a massive difference when you’re talking about hardware like the N64 which wouldn’t want any of those features which micro kernels excel at and which e…

No one forces you to read or reply to them, so whatever.
Post reply on HN