Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan • Hacker News Board

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#171

Post by perardi » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

Exmoor wrote: post #167

perardi wrote: post #120

I fear for Nikon, even though I suspect they have lifelines, given Bank of Japan’s quantitative easing. They’re the least diversified of the big camera companies. Sony has…a lot, from semiconductors to financial instruments. Canon has high-end video, scanners, and enterprise printing and copying. Nikon has photography-oriented cameras, some medical optics, and semiconductor equipment, and that’s about it. They’re jus…

Nikon also has a well respected sports-optics division (binoculars, spotting scopes), although they are also seeing a ton of competition in that marketplace as well.

Yup, I totally forgot about that.

Though that still gets to my point that they make optics, and pretty much just optics. Makes it hard to pivot (ugh, sorry) to anything else, from a corporate mentality standpoint.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#172

Post by foldr » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

robotmay wrote: post #32

hef19898 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cameras =!= Lenses. I always found Nikon cameras more my taste than canon. But that is just taste, in terms of quality, in the sense of the pictures, I never saw a difference. Not back the day when we still developed our black and white pictures ourselves and not now with digital cameras. Lenses on the other hand a different thing altogether. There I saw defferences between the "cheaper" Sigma and the premium Nikkor…

I think camera bodies make a much larger difference these days than lenses, actually. Obviously the lens still makes a notable difference, and for certain forms, like wildlife photography, the lens requirements are inescapable. The new models out in the past few years have absolutely incredible low-light performance that completely change the lens landscape, even; you can now ditch the requirement of carrying a hefty…

>I think it's pretty important to maintain the same manufacturing quality between the two areas. I'm sure that's possible when moving production to Thailand, but I expect it will take time for them to iron out their processes.

Nikon have already been making weather-sealed cameras in Thailand for ages (e.g. the D7500). I think your concerns here are overblown. Any quality problems with their Thai manufacturing operation would already be apparent, given that most of their cameras are made there.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#173

Post by hrktb » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:47 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #99

hrktb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are slow to move and have a hard time to keep up with the world moving on. That leads to a world of trouble for them: - mobile phones eating the “good enough”/ “well integrated” spectrum - Sony eating the “best value”/“modern camera” spectrum - Fuji eating the “different form factor” spectrum - Panasonic still hanging on the 3/4 side They’ll survive, and keep making good camera that pros are waiting for, but it…

You left out Canon, their main competitor for pro cameras.

I kind of see Nikon and Canon as frenemies, together in the tranches trying to survive in an hostile world.

A bit like how Vim and Emacs’ future is not bound to how they do against each other. It would more about securing a place in their user’s life in the first place.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#174

Post by jdmichal » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #45

beagle3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional lens manufacturing is likely in its last days (which can easily take a decade or two, but ... the end is visible). Modern lens are made with techniques perfected in semiconductor manufacturing, and use advances in material science (meta materials in particular). I don't know how close this is to mass market, but I've seen superthin flat lens, with a marginal cost of production around ~$2 in a university f…

>but I've seen superthin flat lens, with a marginal cost of production around ~$2 in a university facility, that work better than some $500 lens -- and the latter are expensive because they are hard to make the traditional way. I find this very fascinating because while I enjoy my ever-increasing smartphone camera and use it as a daily driver, I have a about 13 year old Canon DSLR (one of the first one they made now)…

I have a Sony RX-100 (Mark-IV specifically). Also with a 1" sensor but in a compact body. Even without flexible lenses, I agree with all your points. I make sure to bring it on trips where I expect to be taking lots of pictures. The cellphone is great in the sense that I always have it on me, and the best camera is always the one you have. But the comparative quality is not even close.

But, I mean, it better not be considering both were about the same price!

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#175

Post by te_chris » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

lorenzhs wrote: post #118

criley2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but I've seen superthin flat lens, with a marginal cost of production around ~$2 in a university facility, that work better than some $500 lens -- and the latter are expensive because they are hard to make the traditional way. I find this very fascinating because while I enjoy my ever-increasing smartphone camera and use it as a daily driver, I have a about 13 year old Canon DSLR (one of the first one they made now)…

I can't relate to this at all. I have a Canon EOS 450D (Rebel XSi, 2008 model year) with a few lenses that I used to love, but haven't really used for years now. Its low light performance sucks, it's almost impossible to photograph people at night. My phone does a much better job of that. Yes, the DSLR's optics run circles around any phone, but the sensor really does show its age. And since you specifically mention t…

You're comparing a modern phone to a very old camera in DSLR terms. Much like the nokia you probably had in 2008, things have very much moved on.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#176

Post by warkdarrior » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #128

KineticLensman wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ones who used to make clockwork watches just before digital watches appeared in the 1970s. They failed to invest in time and lost a lot of market share. To be fair, unlike Kodak and cameras, they weren't completely wiped out, and the high-end precision Swiss watch is still a thing. Incidentally, recent sales have apparently been massively affected by COVID, as many of them are sold in bricks-and-mortar boutiques…

I have been seeing a lot of Apple Watches on wrists, lately. Lots of AirPods, too. But that is anecdotal, from a limited geographic perspective.

Completely different markets: good Swiss watches start at $2-3k and go up, way, way up. Apple watches are sub-$1k for the majority of models.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#177

Post by da02 » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #82

monkeynotes wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2-3 stops is enormous. Speed of the lens is partially where the additional cost comes from, and professionals are willing to pay for that extra performance - especially sports photographers. It's been a long time since I paid any attention to pro photographic equipment so I don't know if fast lenses are important with modern sensors performing so well in low light. But back in the analog/early digital days 2-3 stops…

The focus motors are just flat out better in expensive lenses. By contrast, I have a $200 Panasonic pancake lens with a terrible focus motor in it. It's slow, noisy, and hunty.

Which Panasonic pancake lens do you have that is slow & noisy? How's the image quality despite the low-end motor?

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#178

Post by jlarocco » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 4:57 PM UTC

robotmay wrote: post #11

Oof, that's not a good sign. For me, Japan is the place for the best camera and lens manufacturing. Most of the makers seem to split their manufacturing between Japan for their quality models/lenses and cheaper countries for the consumer stuff, which I think is a valid compromise. But this feels short-sighted on Nikon's part and rather like they have already failed. Perhaps instead of relocating their production they…

Not that I doubt your story, but Nikon support is usually pretty good, IME.

Last year I cracked the lens mount on my d810, and I took it to the shop where I bought it, and they sent it off and had it repaired no questions asked for a reasonable price (it's out of warranty). It took longer than I would have liked, but other than that a good experience.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#179

Post by bee_rider » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

schrijver wrote: post #168

bee_rider wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect another aspect to it is that camera manufacturers didn't even really want to go digital at all. They had a nice revenue stream in the form of "selling rolls of film" that would have kept them happy indefinitely. It isn't easy to obsolete your main lifeline.

If I’m not mistaken Canon, Nikon, etc. only ever sold camera’s, not film. And photographers changed camera’s a lot less often in the analogue days. With digital the customers suddenly got on an upgrade schedule similar to that of computers. So from a commercial standpoint the move to digital must have been pretty attractive for the manufacturers.

Huh. Today I learned.

Re: Nikon Is ending 70 years of camera production in Japan

#180

Post by ashtonkem » Mon, Dec 21, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

robotmay wrote: post #38

beagle3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional lens manufacturing is likely in its last days (which can easily take a decade or two, but ... the end is visible). Modern lens are made with techniques perfected in semiconductor manufacturing, and use advances in material science (meta materials in particular). I don't know how close this is to mass market, but I've seen superthin flat lens, with a marginal cost of production around ~$2 in a university f…

There's a couple of lens advancements I've seen recently that I found particularly interesting: Canon putting Fresnel elements in their lenses to reduce size/weight: https://kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/400mm-f4-do-is-ii.htm Canon making an f/11 800mm super telephoto lens that can still autofocus thanks to the new mirrorless camera bodies: https://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-r/lenses/800mm.htm I think we'll see a b…

I wonder how many photographers were put off by the cost & weight of a 800mm lens, and how many just didn't actually need a 800mm lens? The only time I can remember wanting > 200mm was back when I did sports photography.