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The Internet Is for Porn

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Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#171

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #48
what2build wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can sell our bodies to be destroyed in coal mines, sitting at desks, smash them up building homes, abusing them in sports, catch a Covid-19 bug... Puritan economics seem perfectly accepting of destroying ourselves. Willingly sell self for pleasure though? Psh Only if the pleasure comes from that new gadget or next airfare (which is destroying the environment but so it is)

> Willingly sell self for pleasure though? Psh Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to. It was entirely eye-opening to see how sad it is when you're talking with a young women trying to sell t…

> Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to.

This is crazily important.

However ... it still doesn't get to the question of why anyone would consider being on OnlyFans (I'm not discussing in-person sex work) to be more problematic than having to do some other sort of low-paid, low-status, boring, dead-end, exploitative job (and remember, OnlyFans is a classic long-tail situation: for most people on it, it is low paid).

The big picture is that we live in a society which despite occasional flowery words from a senator here and there does not actually value and care for all of its members. We continuously and repeatedly place our neighbors, family, friends, colleagues in situations where in order to survive they have to take options they do not really want to take.

We could take much better care of each other. We could make the bad options much better. We could do both.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#172

Post by bigtunacan »

bonoboTP wrote: post #149
gbrown wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but your take on social attitudes about porn is really strange and pretty misogynistic. > “ Some feel like porn gives unearned satisfaction to young men, a virtual substitute they don't have to work for.” What? Maybe extremist groups like the proud boys, but I’ve literally never heard this objection. People tend to worry more about socialization and the harmful psychological effects porn can have on peopl…

> What? Maybe extremist groups like the proud boys, but I’ve literally never heard this objection I meant this part as quite analogous to the drug debate. People dislike drug comsumers because they feel drugs are a cheat: you get unearned pleasure without having to work for it. You sidestep your noble duties of working and earning the fruits of your labours by short-circuiting and hooking your brain directly on to pl…

You have completely missed the mark and your comparison to drugs just shows how far off base you are. Largely people that are anti-drug have such a stance because of how addiction especially to "harder" drugs can completely consume and ruin people's lives. In the larger societal context addiction leads often to increased violence and increased crime as someone who is addicted and employable will do basically anything to get their next fix. In large part society sees the addict as a victim moreso than anything else.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#173

Post by bonoboTP »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #163
bonoboTP wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's entirely possible that I'm underestimating how prude America is, as I haven't lived there. In some ways it seems America is quite hyperfixated on sex, but in very specific ways with specific taboos. Like nipples are the end of the world, but selling anything from cars to hamburgers with sexy women is A-OK. Just paste a sticker on the nipples at least, then it's fine. Cheerleaders, boxing ring sign holding…

> Well, it's entirely possible that I'm underestimating how prude America is, as I haven't lived there. I think its incredibly distorted, the US overly sells Sex as an image to sell things and links it to everything it can. Not least of which is porn and the Valley in SoCal as opposed to NorCal refers to the what was Ground Zero for Porn where all the old studios were based out of and was where most of the online stu…

> but then when you get to the professional setting and you reach low level management position in an office setting you're briefed on sexual harassment so much you're almost terrified any encounter with the opposite sex will be deemed rape. It's horrible and really not that much of an issue as they want you to think it is when you really think about it as most encounters are brief and forgettable if you're busy working.

It's a legal thing (threats of lawsuits and the associated costs are again one of those things about America that determine many other things). It's also spreading on campuses now, which weirdly have their own tribunals outside of the normal court system and reverse the assumption of innocence in rape accusations etc. Ties into how American college encompasses students lives to a huge extent, while in Europe things are more distributed, people do sports outside of college, regularly live outside of dorms etc. There's no college police etc. Similarly, American workplaces also seem to provide more, e.g. custom healthcare plans, a bit in the direction of how Japanes companies sort of become your "benevolent" provider who will organize many aspects of your life.

Either way, I think it involves lots of layers of posturing. In the end, many people still hook up or even pair up at the workplace. I also know people who are very politically conscious and support all the MeToo etc stuff, but somehow hooked up and became partners at an academic conference. You just have to do it the right way (risky, but not too hard for the socially skilled who know when and how to do it). It's still very much possible. People don't act the way they talk.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#174

Post by spaceribs »

doodpants wrote: post #83
lumberjack wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are literal pimps doing literal pimp work: recruiting young girls, connecting them with clients, and taking a cut of the profit, while keeping control of the whole business. It is not my fault you are offended. I would have no problem if these sex workers setup their own site and did their own business directly with their clients. No pimp would be involved then. There would be no recruiting, which is also where…

I suppose that's technically true, but in the same sense you could say that YouTube pimps its content creators, Hollywood pimps its actors, record labels pimp their artists, etc. Do you honestly think every entertainer and content creator should build and run their own company? Most people don't have the skills and ambition to be entrepeneurs, and content creators need to spend their time focussing on, you know, crea…

Personally, I would love this conversation to move more toward an issue with capitalism in and of itself, which is a much more worthy debate than talking about if the facilitation of sex work is morally justifiable.

If anyone actually has problems with "People exploiting their bodies to functionally exist in society", then please, let me introduce you to this guy called Karl Marx.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#175

Post by lumberjack »

watwut wrote: post #121
burntoutfire wrote: post #43

> [About SV] An observer might note that all of these companies are dominated by men, in an industry dominated by men, tightly interwoven with a venture capital industry that is super-dominated by men. So it’s curious why none of these men have shown any interest in addressing the massive and lucrative sex work industry that overwhelmingly serves, well, men; until you consider who pays the real costs of that industry…

I think that the argument is that male tech workers consume porn as much as other men and therefore solving issues of porn industry could be solving issues they have too. E.g. selfishness of tech males should lead them to care about porn. Your contra argument implicitly assumes that tech makes are special kind of males that don't use porn.

The argument holds no water and it is pretty disgusting of this uber-for-porn pimp to pretend he is doing good. Porn is like weed. If you want to consume it ethically you need to verify your sources. These cam sites have their own serious exploitation issues that are completely being ignored.

If you go on reddit you can find many threads discussing cam girls who are suspected to either be underage or be literal sex slaves.

There are actual ethical porn producers of various flavours (also featured on HN quite a few times). Onlyfans is not one of them.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#176

Post by bonoboTP »

bigtunacan wrote: post #172
bonoboTP wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What? Maybe extremist groups like the proud boys, but I’ve literally never heard this objection I meant this part as quite analogous to the drug debate. People dislike drug comsumers because they feel drugs are a cheat: you get unearned pleasure without having to work for it. You sidestep your noble duties of working and earning the fruits of your labours by short-circuiting and hooking your brain directly on to pl…

You have completely missed the mark and your comparison to drugs just shows how far off base you are. Largely people that are anti-drug have such a stance because of how addiction especially to "harder" drugs can completely consume and ruin people's lives. In the larger societal context addiction leads often to increased violence and increased crime as someone who is addicted and employable will do basically anything…

This reaction somewhat supports my original comment. People have fundamentally different frameworks to view these things and the debates are therefore way deeper than just about porn and sex, and are rather about metaphysical value systems and the fundamental ideologies through which to interpret human life.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#177

Post by seibelj »

_huayra_ wrote: post #101
seibelj wrote: post #16

This is a super good read, if you have 10 minutes I highly recommend. I have absolutely no problems with pornography and if my own daughter decided this was the industry she wanted to enter I would help jumpstart her career anyway I could just as I would any career she chose. My wife and I are very free spirits and the previous HN discussions on Pornhub / NYT article made me feel like I was taking crazy pills and liv…

> We need to change attitudes towards sex work to remove the shame rather than stop entry into a massively popular and universal industry that crosses all cultures. Legalizing, but heavily regulating vices is definitely the way to go. I think a lot of European countries have good models for this (Switzerland and Amsterdam come to mind). The demand for these things is going to exist, and is usually best if it is legal…

> What are the ends / results for sex work? While certain sex workers may make an inordinate amount of cash (which is certainly their right to do in a free market exchange), sex work does not provide a net benefit to society. It ruins relationships (e.g. infidelity with porn or physical sex acts, harming unwitting partners and children of the transgressors) and prevents them from even starting (e.g. stunted personal development due to excessive porn use, as I have seen in a lot of my male colleagues who were the first generation to grow up with high speed internet porn and are now in their early 30s and have no idea how to connect with a partner as a human being and not just a sex object; or in women who sell their bodies one way or another and then end up in no relationship or in an abusive or otherwise substandard relationship because they neglected to build career and interpersonal skills that could benefit them and their pursuit towards self-actualization).

A lot of what you said makes some sense but I definitely lost you there. If you are seriously disabled, your partner has died, you are very old, or have any sort of issue that makes it impossible to have a normal sex life or have any chance of finding a partner that is young and attractive, this is certainly ethically OK to trade money for temporary sexual activity. This is a free exchange between consenting partners.

"Net benefit to society" is the dumbest part of what you said here. By definition two consenting adults trading anything - baseball cards, lawn mowing, sexual activity - is mutually beneficial or they would not have conducted the exchange. Society is better overall when your arbitrary restrictions on what two consenting people can do is removed, as my beliefs on what should be banned are different from yours and different from the guy down the street, so it's better to default that anything that doesn't harm me and is between two consenting people is fine for them.

I get an overall attitude from you that sex is something morally bad. I am friends with a pair of swingers and have witnessed them meet another couple who was into the same thing, leave the party to consummate the relationship, and return a few hours later as if nothing had happened. For some people sex is just something they do and is separate from emotional commitment.

The fact some people watch porn and cannot connect with others intimately does not mean everyone is this way. Just as not everyone who tries cocaine becomes a drug addict, not everyone who watches porn becomes sexually broken. My wife and I have a very healthy sexual relationship and we are both OK with each other viewing erotic material, either together or personally.

I think you need to broaden your horizons about what the totality of human experience is and accept there are many who live very fulfilling lives unencumbered by arbitrary rules on sexual expression.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#178

Post by lumberjack »

_huayra_ wrote: post #110
burntoutfire wrote: post #43

> [About SV] An observer might note that all of these companies are dominated by men, in an industry dominated by men, tightly interwoven with a venture capital industry that is super-dominated by men. So it’s curious why none of these men have shown any interest in addressing the massive and lucrative sex work industry that overwhelmingly serves, well, men; until you consider who pays the real costs of that industry…

This feminist take was definitely uncalled for in this article. The author's bias about how the women, _who are actually getting monetarily compensated_, are the victims completely misses the costs to the purchasers, who are almost all men, in terms of their money and the neurologic changes that such sex work consumption has. Having the "algorithm" suggesting and enticing these men back to buy more subscriptions / pi…

For the record no real feminist would publish this horseshit. It is one thing to advocate for better conditions for sex workers. It is another thing entirely to pimp young girls on the internet, and to even equate the two while pretending to be a feminist is just despicable.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#179

Post by enriquto »

lostgame wrote: post #164
enriquto wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an asexual person, (...) I find it extremely triggering how hard it is to completely avoid adult content online. I would have guessed that if I were asexual, then adult content would leave me completely indifferent, wouldn't it? If I am annoyed by adult content it's precisely because it's extremely distracting; sometimes, when I have work to do, I would prefer to be asexual (at least for a few hours).

I am asexual by choice due to several instances of violent sexual assault.

I'm really sorry about my ignorance. Never considered that you could turn asexual after a traumatic experience. I was under the impression that it was a natural-born condition; thus my comment.

Re: The Internet Is for Porn

#180

Post by Der_Einzige »

navdb wrote: post #14

For those looking to escape porn: https://nofap.com/

I find it funny that there is a movement on every side of the political spectrum against touching yourself.

On the left? It's more of a fetish type thing (chastity) but it's one of those lifestyle long-term fetishes that someone might notice at a party.

In the middle? No nut November, which started as a joke but has a very serious reddit presence.

On the right? no fap.

None of these 3 groups have any overlap with each other - yet they all agree that touching your dick (even if only temporarily like in November) is bad.

Always thought that this was very funny

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