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FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

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Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#171

Post by davycro »

bsaul wrote: post #118

i'm surprised absolutely noone here talks about the fact that we have absolutely no idea what the long term consequences of this new tech are. We've all seen people advocating new wonderful technological solutions that fail because of unknown unknowns, in every field. That's just the rules of the R&D game. In that case we're seriously thinking about injecting a new kind of drug to the whole world population based on…

The case fatality rate is around 1.8% in the USA [1]. Current population is 330 million. So if the entire population becomes infected that’s 5.9 million dead.

The case fatality rate would likely increase as we overwhelm healthcare resources, so it could be even worse.

1% may sound trivial but it becomes meaningful at the scale of a population. The benefits of the vaccine far outweigh the risks.

I was injected yesterday along with my fellow emergency department and ICU staff. People seemed giddy with hope and relieved to become protected. If you see enough people die of covid then the risk of the vaccine seems trivial.

[1] https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#172

Post by reader_1000 »

marvin wrote: post #135
reader_1000 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked the video and he says that based on vaccine literature, for the past any important vaccine safety signature was clear within two months meaning two months is enough to conclude whether a vaccine is safe or not. However, I think his answer seems a little bit superficial. Isn't the most part of the vaccine literature based on traditional vaccines? Yes I know that mRNA is not that much new but is literature on…

Seems like people prefer to downvote rather than try to give a compelling answer to the question "is the literature on long term side effects of mRNA vaccines extensive". If the argument towards this question is overwhelming, surely someone has made a lecture on it somewhere.

> Seems like people prefer to downvote rather than try to give a compelling answer to the question "is the literature on long term side effects of mRNA vaccines extensive".

I think it might be because people are confusing asking questions with being against something. I am neither against vaccines nor mRNA vaccines particularly. I just genuinely want to learn the details. I think it is important to know upsides and downsides of each vaccine out there since there are several alternatives.

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#173

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #112
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They played it save when designing the protocol. Better to err on that side, than to risk failure because you chose a dose that's too low. Given that's what they trialled, there really isn't a mechanism that would allow either them or the FDA to change the protocol from what was tested. Yes, this is annoying. You can make that educated guess and not show up for your second shot and you'll probably help someone. But m…

There is a lot of real evidence that masks do work https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Quoting myself: right now, January 2020,

(meaning: I was trying to reenact a scene from the beginning of (gestures around) all this)

That paper: June 2020

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#174

Post by blhack »

tertius wrote: post #35
blhack wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people I am personally acquainted with who have been PCR positive for COVID, who are now also receiving the vaccine.

If they haven't been proven to be infected why should it matter?

What? They have been proven to be infected (PCR positive) and they are now receiving the vaccine.

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#175

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #138
rimliu wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, what the mechanism for the long term consequences would be? mRNA itself is gone in days. All what's left is antibodies and some immune memory which should be the same as if you had real COVID. Is that more dangerous than catching covid which may affect your body in many more ways than vaccine which makes your cells to produce a particular protein? I do not know what the long term effects of the glass of water I j…

This is not necessarily specific to the mRNA vaccines, but one potential consequence of population-wide deployment of a 90% effective vaccine might be to create selective pressure for a more virulent strain of Covid without actually eliminating it.

By that logic, we'd be ravaged by polio, the plague, tetanus, super-smart bears, and evil spirits.

We should also stop all research.

(I was going to also sarcastically suggest disbanding the military. But that actually happens to sort-of work along the lines you have in mind, because we can disarm tit-for-tat along with everyone else. So what we really need is for COVID to evolve faster, until it is capable of negotiating a truce and make strategic decisions)

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#176

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

kart23 wrote: post #99
gnicholas wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to NPR [1] > Moderna spokesperson Colleen Hussey explained to NPR in an email that its vaccine doesn't need to be kept so cold because of its particular "lipid nanoparticle properties and structure," and because the company has learned from experience — it's developed ten mRNA vaccine candidates already. "Now we don't need [ultra-cold conditions] as the quality of product has improved and [it] doesn't need…

Read in between the lines for a moment. They're saying that the differences are secret, and they're not gonna release the specific structure of the LNPs and why the differences are there. The equivalent of having two proprietary binaries that both accomplish the same task, but have different code, and the reasons why are secret as well. And we're accepting this on the first mRNA vaccine ever to be used on a massive s…

It doesn't matter now because that's not some ingredient you can bolt on. It was part of the initial design process.

Sure, they could have shared all their secrets, and BioNTech theirs. Then, they would have come up with the same vaccine candidate and run two identical trials. Which would've been quite useless and far more risky.

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#177

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

brobdingnagians wrote: post #109
gnicholas wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to NPR [1] > Moderna spokesperson Colleen Hussey explained to NPR in an email that its vaccine doesn't need to be kept so cold because of its particular "lipid nanoparticle properties and structure," and because the company has learned from experience — it's developed ten mRNA vaccine candidates already. "Now we don't need [ultra-cold conditions] as the quality of product has improved and [it] doesn't need…

Those LNPs have historically caused adverse reactions, per their 2018 SEC filing, hopefully their upgraded versions are improved and do not cause those reactions; I am hopeful.that they have, because of the reported results of their current clinical trials, but it is a data point: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1682852/000119312518... "Most of our investigational medicines are formulated and administered in…

> "have historically"

vs.

"may lead" / "may not have", "can be no assurance that [they] will not" / "could contribute" / etc.

This virus seems to have the unique ability to cause cognitive impairments at a distance.

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#178

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

harimau777 wrote: post #147
Exmoor wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the first and second doses of the mRNA vaccines are identical.

Could the first dose be one the Pfizer one and the second be the Moderna one? That might make logistics somewhat easier.

no. Might work, isn't tested.

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#179

Post by AndrewBissell »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #175
AndrewBissell wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not necessarily specific to the mRNA vaccines, but one potential consequence of population-wide deployment of a 90% effective vaccine might be to create selective pressure for a more virulent strain of Covid without actually eliminating it.

By that logic, we'd be ravaged by polio, the plague, tetanus, super-smart bears, and evil spirits . We should also stop all research. (I was going to also sarcastically suggest disbanding the military. But that actually happens to sort-of work along the lines you have in mind, because we can disarm tit-for-tat along with everyone else. So what we really need is for COVID to evolve faster , until it is capable of nego…

The polio vaccine, as administered, is over 99% effective, which is an order of magnitude difference.

If what I wrote is correct I don't see how it lends itself to "stop all research" as opposed to "wait until we have a more effective vaccine." I'm not even saying it's a greater than 50% probability, but it is a risk.

Re: FDA grants authorization to Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine

#180

Post by kart23 »

Siira wrote: post #161
kart23 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read in between the lines for a moment. They're saying that the differences are secret, and they're not gonna release the specific structure of the LNPs and why the differences are there. The equivalent of having two proprietary binaries that both accomplish the same task, but have different code, and the reasons why are secret as well. And we're accepting this on the first mRNA vaccine ever to be used on a massive s…

> Yes they spent a lot of money and time creating the vaccine. Now open source it and let the rest of the world save their citizens. And who’s going to pay for it? The whole PPE shortage was exactly because of this entitled attitude. If you artificially limit prices, you’ll only limit the supply (to possibly nothing, as vaccines have high upfront costs), and enable scalpers. One obvious solution is to have a UN initi…

Ideally, they would realize that moral responsibility to save lives is greater than money in this case. I don't think money would even be a problem, public pressure would be enough if everyone knew what was at stake. The companies capable of manufacturing would still make money by selling the vaccine to governments and people.
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