Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

mtlynch.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 270 posts

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#171

Post by mtlynch »

rexreed wrote: post #168
mtlynch wrote: post #97

Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post. I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn't seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144103

It sounds to me like you've uncovered potential affiliate fraud and were willing to settle for a small sum. Honestly, they should be more scared about your article uncovering their bad business practices -- they'll lose more from that than the $88 you settled for. However, despite the title including the word "debt", this is not a "debt" you were collected because the exact amount was not discussed. Instead, $88 just…

Thanks for reading!

Basically, you just agreed to settle and not continue to press your valid claims of potential affiliate fraud.

What would have been a better course of action?

Even under the most optimistic estimates, they owed me less than $500. I don't have access to their sales data, so I don't have hard proof that they're committing fraud. The company's legal team could just turn around and say, "Oh, our rep was mistaken when they said we're not following our own policy. We actually do pay according to our published agreement, but you didn't make any sales during that time period."

I could have pursued options for some sort of class action lawsuit with subpoenas for their sales data, but that's a much bigger time and financial commitment than I wanted to put in.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#172

Post by GordonS »

Normal_gaussian wrote: post #123
newdude116 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I fully recommend using it if a vendor is outright refusing to uphold their side of the bargain." What is also very stupid since they don't lose only the money but also very likely a customer.

They aren't that likely to lose each customer. Ryanair targets cheap flights, their customers are those who discriminate on price. In this instance there is even an externality to point to, shifting the blame - even implicitly. It also has to be considered that shrinking their market share is viable if it allows the company to survive.

> their customers are those who discriminate on price

Not only price. We've flown previously with Ryanair numerous times, and I don't think price was ever the deciding factor - they simply fly to a lot of European destinations, so for us it's meant shorter routes.

They've completely lost my trust after this debacle though - their illegal behaviour had been utterly shameful, and I'll go out of my way not to use them in future.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#173

Post by GordonS »

newdude116 wrote: post #116
GordonS wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Use your US CC, make charge-backs I'm in the UK, and made my first ever charge back a couple of months back, after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus (we'd booked it before the pandemic started). I'd paid with my CC (a UK card; not sure why it would be any different with a US CC?). I forget the exact sum, but it was something like £1,500. Ryanair completely took the piss - the…

In my experience charge backs are not so common in mainland Europe. A US CC issuer (and I am a customer since 18 years with the same card) can be much more aggressive about this. I think Wizz air has never dealt with an US CC :-) Nevertheless I don't abuse this. I only request a charge back if I assume I also would win a lawsuit. But nobody has ever challenged one of my charge backs in court.

> In my experience charge backs are not so common in mainland Europe

Definitely agree. I'm pushing 40, and this is the first time I've done it. When I talked with friends and colleagues about this (from in the UK, but also from around Europe), I don't think a single person even knew what chargebacks were.

But I don't think I've ever once been in this kind of situation where my hand was forced - companies in Europe generally do the right thing, or at least behave within the boundaries of the law.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#174

Post by mtlynch »

effingwewt wrote: post #151

The article is just more affiliate spam, he even links to his 'how to get to front page of HN'. The article is all over the olace and buried near the end is the book he got the 'solution' from. A correct title would be 'how book' X' helped me recover funds' But that wouldn't earn him mlre affiliate spam. Get bent dude.

Author here.

>The article is just more affiliate spam

There are no affiliate links in this article. I link to a writing course I teach, but that's not an affiliate link, as I'm selling my own product.

>buried near the end is the book he got the 'solution' from.

>A correct title would be 'how book' X' helped me recover funds'

The link is to a blog post[0] that I discuss heavily in the beginning of the article.[1]

[0] https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

[1] https://mtlynch.io/collect-debt/#handling-bad-behavior-with-...

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#175

Post by danparsonson »

momokoko wrote: post #145
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #124

I like the article. It presents the way that I believe we should all behave with each other in a professional environment. Respect and Courtesy are important at all times (IMNSHO). Some folks seem to feel that being respectful is a sign of weakness, but cops are extremely respectful, as they explain to you why they will be writing a ticket for an eye-watering amount (at least, good cops are). Many moons ago, when the…

> Respect and Courtesy are important at all times I could not disagree more. Ethical and considerate _actions_ are important at all times. Many very dishonest people help themselves sleep at night by pretending that being polite excuses their actions. It does not. Actions have real life, often irreversible, effects on those around you. Being polite has few, if any, tangible effects.

> Ethical and considerate _actions_ are important at all times

Agree with that;

> Actions have real life, often irreversible, effects on those around you

agree with that also;

> Many very dishonest people help themselves sleep at night by pretending that being polite excuses their actions

I could believe this is true, although I suspect most habitually dishonest people don't even see themselves as dishonest or think they're doing anything wrong.

None of these things are opposite to what the GP wrote though - so I don't understand what you're disagreeing with.

A classic example of the value of respect and courtesy in dealing with a difficult situation is when you have a problem with a food order at a restaurant. You can choose to shout at the person serving you, or approach the problem in a respectful and courteous way - in my experience, the latter is more effective at getting the best outcome, regardless of who is nominally at fault.

Respectful discourse also gives you an easy route to backing down when it turns out you've made the mistake, and some moral high ground if you need to escalate the situation.

Finally I would also say that even if someone is behaving unpleasantly towards you, that does not necessitate an unpleasant response. They may be having a terrible day for other reasons, and a little patience gives them a chance to relax a bit and respond in a more constructive way, which is to your benefit. It's hard for someone to stay angry with you when you're treating them fairly.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#176

Post by rexreed »

mtlynch wrote: post #171
rexreed wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds to me like you've uncovered potential affiliate fraud and were willing to settle for a small sum. Honestly, they should be more scared about your article uncovering their bad business practices -- they'll lose more from that than the $88 you settled for. However, despite the title including the word "debt", this is not a "debt" you were collected because the exact amount was not discussed. Instead, $88 just…

Thanks for reading! Basically, you just agreed to settle and not continue to press your valid claims of potential affiliate fraud. What would have been a better course of action? Even under the most optimistic estimates, they owed me less than $500. I don't have access to their sales data, so I don't have hard proof that they're committing fraud. The company's legal team could just turn around and say, "Oh, our rep w…

Well first of all, do you plan to continue to do business with this unscrupulous company?

Second, what is your general position on business ethics? If you get yours, then is it ok for them to be potentially screwing others? Basically are you of the perspective that as long as you're taken care of, who cares about the others?

You're right, a class action would be the result here, and maybe it's not worth it for this fleabag of a company and the potential outcome you might get.

But I think you might want to rethink what this article is about.

This article, despite the title and claims has little to do with a professional note-taking approach. Rather it's "How I uncovered potential affiliate fraud, and I agreed to settle with them for a small amount rather than fight them."

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#177

Post by Dumblydorr »

momokoko wrote: post #145
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #124

I like the article. It presents the way that I believe we should all behave with each other in a professional environment. Respect and Courtesy are important at all times (IMNSHO). Some folks seem to feel that being respectful is a sign of weakness, but cops are extremely respectful, as they explain to you why they will be writing a ticket for an eye-watering amount (at least, good cops are). Many moons ago, when the…

> Respect and Courtesy are important at all times I could not disagree more. Ethical and considerate _actions_ are important at all times. Many very dishonest people help themselves sleep at night by pretending that being polite excuses their actions. It does not. Actions have real life, often irreversible, effects on those around you. Being polite has few, if any, tangible effects.

"Being polite has few, if any, tangible effects"

This is easily refuted. Being polite is socially expected, therefore being rude is unexpected. When you're rude, people take it personally, and it creates anxiety, anger, and rage, because it is unexpected and frankly, unnecessary.

There's just no situation I can imagine where being rude and impolite helps. Every social situation is ameliorated by the engine oil that is kindness. People are happier, more willing to help, more creative and flexible, all due to not yelling and not personally attacking them. Both parties in any transaction or interaction being polite is a win win.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#178

Post by pavel_lishin »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #124

I like the article. It presents the way that I believe we should all behave with each other in a professional environment. Respect and Courtesy are important at all times (IMNSHO). Some folks seem to feel that being respectful is a sign of weakness, but cops are extremely respectful, as they explain to you why they will be writing a ticket for an eye-watering amount (at least, good cops are). Many moons ago, when the…

> cops are extremely respectful

I'm glad you've had only positive experiences with the police, but this is a hell of a take in 2020.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#179

Post by rendall »

smsm42 wrote: post #19

Looks like KMK just tried to cheat hoping that nobody would make much of a fuss over a hundred bucks or so. And they are probably right in enough cases to make it worth it. If occasionally somebody does make a fuss, they just pay up the hundred bucks and still aren't worse than before.

Except now they have enough negative publicity about documented shady practice that it will likely destroy their affiliate program. Honesty really is the best policy
Post reply on HN