World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#171

Post by kempbellt » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

dzolob wrote: post #149

kempbellt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a reducto ad absurdum takeaway, but I wonder if at some point will we consider the humans required to create said food, part of the "animals treated as commodities"? Unless humans are somehow exempt from the list, I don't see how this argument is feasible in the realistic sense. Humans are frequently treated as commodities, as any team over the size of 1 needs to delegate responsibilities to people. Hence, "d…

Well, there are whole continents where people are treated as commodities. Working 16 hours a day for one or two dollars while living in unhealthy, unmerciful environments is not drastically different from being breeded for exploitation.

To quote you:

> There is a whole lot of citation needed on this reply

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#172

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #135

The chickens we raise on our hobby farm are "dual purpose" birds in that they are good for both meat and eggs. That is traditionally how all poultry was raised, really, on family farms, etc. Roosters were raised and fattened until a few months in, and then slaughtered and eaten, while a portion of the hens were kept for laying. The meat from roosters isn't as good, but it's frankly fine overall. There's no reason the…

> There's no reason the meat industry couldn't divert the male chickens into a separate supply chain

Setting aside the ethics, purpose bred meat birds are much less expensive to raise and more desirable to consumers.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#173

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

As a hobby grower, I'd pay a premium for birds like this. We buy sex links and the idea that the dude chicks get slaughtered bothers be some.

Though my SIL has expressed a willingness to slaughter the roosters so perhaps I'll just buy straight runs from now on and eat fresh chicken.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#174

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #123

eplanit wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soon Jainism will become popular, is my prediction. Someone will package twigs and leaves as a Jainist snack pack and make a fortune.... I'd better get started! /s

VC pitch: We'll make money on the supplements our customers have to take.

[deleted]

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#175

Post by codyb » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #173

As a hobby grower, I'd pay a premium for birds like this. We buy sex links and the idea that the dude chicks get slaughtered bothers be some. Though my SIL has expressed a willingness to slaughter the roosters so perhaps I'll just buy straight runs from now on and eat fresh chicken.

It was only recently I put two and two together and realized farmers kill all the male calfs which result from impregnating cows so they can start being milked.

On the other hand... veal is delicious. But it does feel a bit bad.

At this point I just aim for local farms for meat as much as possible, and organic and pasture raised where I can't. Even if they still kill the male borns, at least I know the animals are being treated a bit better.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#176

Post by cmrdporcupine » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #168

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #135

The chickens we raise on our hobby farm are "dual purpose" birds in that they are good for both meat and eggs. That is traditionally how all poultry was raised, really, on family farms, etc. Roosters were raised and fattened until a few months in, and then slaughtered and eaten, while a portion of the hens were kept for laying. The meat from roosters isn't as good, but it's frankly fine overall. There's no reason the…

I started this year with a couple dozen chickens, a motley crew of heritage breeds. Our (formerly 3) roosters definitely started showing aggression before 6 months. Furthermore, the repeated mounting of the hens is pretty abusive - chicken sex, I'm sorry to say, is pretty much rape. That said, as you noted, on an industrial scale you would separate the roosters. But it's not clear that there's any market at all for r…

I'm surprised you noticed the aggression before 6 months. It's actually hard to even identify roosters as roosters in the first few months. They don't develop their physical traits fully for some time.

Re: birds and rape, wait til you see ducks...

I should note that there are roosters and then there are roosters. We had a really amazing one, a well bred barred rock who was a real gentleman. They have an important role in the flock, warning about and fending off predators. He died after sustaining wounds from diverting a fox over 100 feet away from his hens. Tussled with the fox from the coop all the way down to the road, distracting it from his hens, then hid under a passing car until we could rescue him. Miss that guy.

But it is important that the hen to rooster ratio is right, or they get competitive and mean.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#177

Post by slothtrop » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

Falling3 wrote: post #156

slothtrop wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like an apt description to me. If you're referring to killing chickens for consumption, eggs have no bearing, it has its own demand.

There's no way to sell eggs and turn a profit without killing hens. Their production wanes as they get older and they are killed to make way for the new generation. This has nothing to do with demand for meat. Your parent comment is right; these are not "no-kill". At best, they're "less-kill".

I believe this is true of conventional caged farming, not all of it. If they can aspire to "no-kill" on one level, no reason they can't do so across the board.

> There's no way to sell eggs and turn a profit without killing hens.

Would like to see a source on that.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#178

Post by dehrmann » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #135

The chickens we raise on our hobby farm are "dual purpose" birds in that they are good for both meat and eggs. That is traditionally how all poultry was raised, really, on family farms, etc. Roosters were raised and fattened until a few months in, and then slaughtered and eaten, while a portion of the hens were kept for laying. The meat from roosters isn't as good, but it's frankly fine overall. There's no reason the…

> There's no reason the meat industry couldn't divert the male chickens into a separate supply chain...

I assume that that cost of an egg for a broiler chicken is less than the price delta for fewer pounds of worse meat that takes longer to produce, so it's still more cost effective to accept the male chicks as a sunk cost and move on.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#179

Post by mbil » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:03 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #155

mbil wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything profitable is ethical? I disagree. Supply chains are opaque and complex and there’s a diffusion of responsibility by the time you reach the level of decision-making consumers. I may give money to a company that is doing something unethical without my really knowing or thinking about it.

> Everything profitable is ethical? I never made this claim, as ethics in this case is subjective: some things are ethical in some eyes and unethical in others, and profitability is the mechanism of reaching consensus between these views. Your point about transparency is valid, I have to admit. However, I don't think that it applies in the case of food production: most meat and animal products consumers are well-awar…

> I never made this claim

Sorry, you're right. That's what I took away from your claim that profit encodes a signal for ethicality. I still am not sure I agree with the idea that profit represents a consensus for whether or not something is ethical. Specifically _because_ money is involved it seems like the equation is muddied.

In the food production case, more ethical choices often come with a higher price tag. E.g., I believe that cage-free eggs are more ethical, but when I was broke I would buy the cheaper eggs because I was financially incentivized to do something I found less ethical, if only in a small way. And even now, if I am in a rush to buy eggs and the store is out of cage-free, I'll still make the less-ethical decision to do what is cheaper (in terms of energy). I wouldn't say that people's ethics are determined by how much money they have, but rather people may believe that one product option is more ethical than another, but considerations about money and convenience make them sometimes behave less ethically than they would without those constraints.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#180

Post by Falling3 » Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 6:03 PM UTC

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #169

wpietri wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. That's a weird complaint on a site about eternal disruption, eternal improvement of things that are basically fine already. I'm an omnivore, and I'm comfortable with it. But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive. I really appreciate people pushing the envelope on this. If I could eat basically the same diet but…

> But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive. We don't undergo photosynthesis, so fundamentally we have to kill and eat other beings to survive. Plants are other living beings too. And a revolution is underway in learning about plant intelligence -- while not a nervous system, trees communicate with each other and share resources. [1] My primary r…

Plants are not beings under any standard usage of the word. While plants certainly communicate and show some level of computational processing, there is no evidence they have subjective experiences. There is a very clearly line to be drawn between plants and animals.

And if that's not a compelling enough counterargument, there are two additional issues with trying to conflate plants and animals in this context. First, it takes far more plants to support an omnivorous diet than a plant-based diet. Second, many plant-based products are obtainable without having to harm the plant.