Live data from Hacker News

Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

security-embedded.com

171–180 of 213 posts

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#171
post #105
post #11

If this unacceptable mess is "doing it well", perhaps the whole idea is doomed and should not be attempting to do it at all. > It comes down to an argument of trust - do you trust Apple is acting in your best interests No. I mean really very obviously no. Neither Microsoft. Nor Google. Why would I assume any company would act in my interests when they have clear incentives to increase their profits and control by act…

Perhaps we should think about this from a utilitarian perspective. There are obvious security advantages to app signing. But there are also negative implications for privacy and availability. Given tens of millions of non-technical users, is app signing likely to result in more good than bad, taking into account the fact that it can be turned off? I don’t know the answer, but I’m pretty sure those who relentlessly fo…

The key is in understanding that the trade off is an illusion. App signing is de facto blacklisting. Anyone can get an app signed but Apple maintains a naughty list. It's just anti-virus by another name.

But you don't need signed apps for that, only hashes. And you don't have to phone home for that, only download the latest naughty list whenever it changes so you can check against it locally.

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this unacceptable mess is "doing it well", perhaps the whole idea is doomed and should not be attempting to do it at all. Well, "unacceptable mess" are your words. It's totally acceptable to me that there could be issues on a feature / launch that need to be ironed out, unless we're talking about aviation software or pacemakers. If we deemed "unacceptable" any misstep or early issue, we wouldn't even have fire,…

Spin, spin, spin. I learned to distrust Apple's hardware after I bought my last (i)Mac. I've see no reason to think it or its software's gotten more trustworthy. (The company that released the Apple II manual was trustworthy. That company was buried out behind the shed long ago.)

> (The company that released the Apple II manual was trustworthy. That company was buried out behind the shed long ago.)

When Woz left.

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#173
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't want to turn it off. I want to benefit from checking the revocation list without sending my data to Apple on every app start, even if I am vulnerable for a few hours, until my computer syncs the revocation list. I want a middle way, not an ON or OFF button.

As this article here: https://blog.jacopo.io/en/post/apple-ocsp/ showcases, Apple doesn't send "my data" on every app start. It sends a hash of the certificate in use to Apple, which happens to be an Apple certificate that is used to sign many applications running on your system. None of your data is being sent to Apple.

Even the fact that I opened an app is my data.

Responses were cached for 5 minutes.[1] That's effectively checking every time.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25096307

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#174
post #11

If this unacceptable mess is "doing it well", perhaps the whole idea is doomed and should not be attempting to do it at all. > It comes down to an argument of trust - do you trust Apple is acting in your best interests No. I mean really very obviously no. Neither Microsoft. Nor Google. Why would I assume any company would act in my interests when they have clear incentives to increase their profits and control by act…

I conclude the opposite: Yes. I mean really very obviously yes. And Microsoft. And Google. I assume they're acting in my interests because they have clear incentives to increase their profits by giving me useful helpful products that I'll buy . That's the entire premise of competition and the free market. The invisible hand gives consumers what they want. If, as a company, you don't, then you go out of business. If t…

Comcast.

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#175
post #11

If this unacceptable mess is "doing it well", perhaps the whole idea is doomed and should not be attempting to do it at all. > It comes down to an argument of trust - do you trust Apple is acting in your best interests No. I mean really very obviously no. Neither Microsoft. Nor Google. Why would I assume any company would act in my interests when they have clear incentives to increase their profits and control by act…

I do trust apple over a hundred different developers with random practices. I found out not long ago that a tool I was using had no hygiene practices at all - they grabbed random versions of things they packaged up, had no meaningful audit trail at all, no means to notify (or even awareness that this might be a consideration) essentially no meaningful code review and so on. I noted this because I was investigating a…

McDonald's food never makes me sick. One time I went to a different restaurant, and I found out that they had no hygiene practices at all. At least McDonald's is one step above mayhem, and it therefore is where I eat all my dinners.

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm entirely fine with people running "Trust" systems. But not when the platforms do it by force. If you want to pay McAfee, or some other service to force your computer to only run trusted code, then that's your choice. I might even be fine if Apple or Microsoft offered it as a service you have to pay extra for. The problem is when one entity can lock down a platform entirely. Its a problem when its not a choice the…

Mac market share is less than 10% in the US, even lower in other countries. I personally know at least one person who is considering not buying one next time around just because of this incident. Some people use tools that lock them onto a Mac, but most of that is just people that have to develop for Macs (and they’re stuck no matter what Apple does, because they need to test on Macs). The iOS/App Store monopoly argu…

Apple isn't just Macs. iPhone has 50% or greater market share in the USA. iPad has 65% or market share as well. Apple certainly does exploit a monopoly in various different ways. One is their monopoly on browser engines in iOS that lets them dictate web standards because if they don't implement something then the 1.5 billion iSO devices don't get it period.

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#177
post #105
post #11

If this unacceptable mess is "doing it well", perhaps the whole idea is doomed and should not be attempting to do it at all. > It comes down to an argument of trust - do you trust Apple is acting in your best interests No. I mean really very obviously no. Neither Microsoft. Nor Google. Why would I assume any company would act in my interests when they have clear incentives to increase their profits and control by act…

Perhaps we should think about this from a utilitarian perspective. There are obvious security advantages to app signing. But there are also negative implications for privacy and availability. Given tens of millions of non-technical users, is app signing likely to result in more good than bad, taking into account the fact that it can be turned off? I don’t know the answer, but I’m pretty sure those who relentlessly fo…

> There are obvious security advantages to app signing. But there are also negative implications for privacy and availability.

App signing exists elsewhere without sacrificing privacy. Most Linux packages, for example, are signed with GPG keys. The difference is that Linux only cares about installing trusted packages. It doesn't care about applications that are already installed after verification. Apple insists on having the ability to revoke something that's already installed. There are two issues here:

1. Is it reasonable to revoke permissions for an installed package? It could be argued that it will help stop malicious apps that were discovered after they were distributed. However, it could equally as well be that Apple wants more control over devices and hold developers to ransom. Their recent treatment of developers indicate that this concern is not at all misplaced. The least Apple could do is warn the user about a revoked certificate and ask if they still want to proceed (like how browsers do in the same scenario). However, it just refuses outright.

2. Apple chose a very bad method to implement online certificate revocation. OCSP is meant for server certificate validation. OCSP stapling is preferred over plain OCSP due to privacy concerns. Stapling cannot be used in this context. This method unfortunately ruins privacy and spill user information everywhere. They could have chosen some other more private method, like an updatable CRL.

> I’m pretty sure those who relentlessly focus on the possible downsides don’t know either.

As I said, there are more private ways to push revocation status. Apple always claimed that the device lockdown was to ensure privacy. This oversight shows how hollow that claim is.

Important part to notice is the false dichotomy of freedom vs security. The argument that negligent users will screw up if given freedom. This is wrong for two reasons:

1. Defaults vs restrictions: Keep the defaults secure and slightly hard to modify for normal users. But don't restrict those who need alternatives.

2. Security can be achieved without locking everything down and remote controlling it. See web browsers for example. We run JS from all insecure sources, but cannot access sensitive resources (like camera, file access etc) without users' permission. The same can be achieved on OS with sandboxing, microkernels etc.

> no one is held hostage or abused in this scenario

Abuse is not always apparent to the abused. User rights are gradually eroded away in the name of security, giving users enough time to get accustomed to it. There may be escape hatches now, but they are slowly getting closed. For example, we considered PCs that don't allow us to install another OS as abusive. However, we don't hold mobile devices to the same standard. Unfortunately, this normalization of abuse doesn't just affect those who accept it. The rest of us are left without a choice. That criticism is definitely valid.

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#178
post #2

> there are a lot of folks reasonably asking if they can trust Apple to be in the loop of deciding what apps should or should not run on their Macs. My argument is - who better than Apple? ... The user?

yes, because at least the user is trying to act in their own best interest, even if they fail

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#179
post #141
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s about security: https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-update-kills-off-zoom-we... As for Epic. They lied about the content of the software they uploaded to the store, and knowingly breached a contract they had signed. If that isn’t fraud, I don’t know what is. They could have sued Apple without the fraud. The certificate revocation was only about the fraudulent software update.

Yes Epic are bastards too. And Zoom. In fact these days it's wall to wall bastards. But the end user doesn't care. They bought something and they want to keep it and use it. And that's where the buck stops.

> these days it's wall to wall bastards.

Sometimes I really wish I owned a T-shirt printing business. Thanks!

Re: Application trust is hard, but Apple does it well

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac market share is less than 10% in the US, even lower in other countries. I personally know at least one person who is considering not buying one next time around just because of this incident. Some people use tools that lock them onto a Mac, but most of that is just people that have to develop for Macs (and they’re stuck no matter what Apple does, because they need to test on Macs). The iOS/App Store monopoly argu…

> Mac market share is less than 10% in the US, even lower in other countries Do people on other platforms have so many security issues that Apple's measures are justified?

I would say no. Windows/Linux machines are generally secure.

I think it matters a lot what you consider "Secure" to mean. Most security people are focused on stopping an attacker from remotely installing and executing malicious code on your device. Huge amount of effort is dedicated by security people to adding hardware to stop buffer over runs, make memory protected, signing code and so on, to stop these types of attacks. A more locked down system like iOS/Android is at least in theory more secure then a device ruining Windows and especially Linux, that lets the user install and run what ever they want.

If you on the other hand define security as in control over your device and your data, then the Mobile devices are terrible. A lot of apps are full of "telemetry" (read spyware) that in practice makes most Mobile device leaks a huge amount of data. You have very little control over this. This is an attack vector that is mostly ignored by these companies, because they dont see it as an attack vector, but rather as a revenue stream.

Post reply on HN