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Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

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Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#171

Post by colinmhayes »

astrea wrote: post #89
0xB31B1B wrote: post #49

What frustrates me about this whole argument over wealth taxes is that the arguments aren't grounded in facts. The reality is that we "pay" for inequality with reduced productivity. A great example of this is "single family home neighborhoods" in urban areas. They have no societal benefit, they are essentially subsidized land use patterns for the well off, and it makes it harder for less well of folks to move to area…

> A great example of this is "single family home neighborhoods" in urban areas. They have no societal benefit, they are essentially subsidized land use patterns for the well off, and it makes it harder for less well of folks to move to areas where they can get a better job/improve their lot in life and grow the economy. I've seen this talking point twice now this week. What's the alternative? We all live in crowded m…

The alternative is upzoning and land value tax which encourages density.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#172

Post by mikepurvis »

newfriend wrote: post #104
mikepurvis wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A famous formulation of that is: "John Steinbeck once said that socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

So tired of reading this quote every time taxes come up like it's some profound statement. I see it so often to ridicule "silly poor people voting for lower taxes". It's possible for someone to think that it's unfair for some people to pay a huge amount of taxes unfairly, without they themselves thinking "one day I'll be rich".

I think it's more than just "one day I'll be rich"; it's part of the mythos of where wealth comes from. If your starting point is the American Dream, that wealth comes purely from a combination of ingenuity, luck, and hard work, either from the individual or one or more previous generations, then it's easy to see being asked to pay away a share of it as unfair. But if you see wealth as something that arises at least in part from the opportunities afforded by the structures and services within a society, then it's reasonable to expect that the society is owed back a portion of it, in part to maintain those services for the benefit of others coming later.

And fairness aside, there's the purely pragmatic concern that multi-generational wealth concentration is bad for almost everything— bad for democracy, bad for fairness in media, bad for civil unrest, etc etc. Is taxing wealth an effective way to manage this? Maybe, maybe not. But anyone who wants to critique it should probably be willing to support _some_ plan for controlling wealth inequality over the long term.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#173

Post by andrepd »

I will never understand the people who think that media outlets are biased... toward the left. Yes, I'm sure that if this multinational conglomerate of 100 TV channels and 200 newspapers, owned by a multibillionaire, is a communist propaganda outlet.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#174

Post by maerF0x0 »

munk-a wrote: post #153
maerF0x0 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we tax wealth, people will be incentivized to generate non-wealth things. Why buy a stock if Biden will take 1% of it annually? May as well just buy rapidly depreciating status symbols instead.

Why work as an average american is the government will take 22% of it? Probably because trading stocks will still leave you with a lot more money than if you threw a tantrum, took your toys home and hid your money under your mattress - no plan that I've seen has investors paying capital gains at the level of their equivalent income - investment is still heavily subsidized.

> capital gains

Capital gains happen on money that has already been taxed as income. Capital Gains tax is less because it's round 2 of the taxation game.

Also taxing assets on their capital means people will not invest in capitally intensive projects. For example building a new housing complex returning 3% per year (after inflation) is 33% less interesting with an additional 1% wealth tax (on the capital) ...

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#176

Post by turbinerneiter »

coliveira wrote: post #53
tonystubblebine wrote: post #6

As a business owner, when taxes are low, I see that as an incentive to pocket profits. But when taxes are high, I see that as an incentive to hide the profits by investing in the future. I know this isn't always the case with everyone. And especially investors have a case that higher corporate taxes reduce the value of their investments, possibly to the point of not making them. But this incentive is so blatantly obv…

This is so hidden in the debate that it is almost like a "secret". The more taxes you have on corporate income, the higher the incentive for corporations to invest in the company, so they can avoid paying taxes. This is good for the economy. On the other hand, lowering corporate taxes also generates a cascade of tax avoidance, since you have higher profits that generate the need for more complex tax avoidance schemes…

I thought that this is common knowledge, every company I know is doing this. Spend their money in the end of the year to reduce taxable profit.

Tax evasion breaks this system. Profit is taken out of the system and stores offshore, where it doesn't create any value.

Tax evasion is bad. Investing is good.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#177

Post by thaumasiotes »

nostrademons wrote: post #60
zdragnar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange. Business owner friends of mine have taken the opposite approach over the years. Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever. Maybe it is largely the type of business that behavior changes. Their last venture was starting up an aquaponics farm in a borderline urban / suburban area, though I haven't kep…

I think the OP is talking about investing within the business. The business is a separate legal entity with its own income, expenditures, and assets that is under the control of its owner. Assuming that you want to continue owning the business as a going concern, it makes sense to maximize expenditures (by investing in the future) and minimize profits when tax rates are high. But if you're happy entering and exiting…

> But if you're happy entering and exiting the business as a whole, it makes sense to sell it (transferring money equal to its value to your personal balance sheet) when taxes are low and about to go up, and then just not work while taxes are high.

Not quite. The fact that taxes are about to go up has already taken a huge chunk out of the sale value of the business. You want to sell it when taxes are low and not about to go up.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#178

Post by majormajor »

zdragnar wrote: post #34
tonystubblebine wrote: post #6

As a business owner, when taxes are low, I see that as an incentive to pocket profits. But when taxes are high, I see that as an incentive to hide the profits by investing in the future. I know this isn't always the case with everyone. And especially investors have a case that higher corporate taxes reduce the value of their investments, possibly to the point of not making them. But this incentive is so blatantly obv…

Strange. Business owner friends of mine have taken the opposite approach over the years. Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever. Maybe it is largely the type of business that behavior changes. Their last venture was starting up an aquaponics farm in a borderline urban / suburban area, though I haven't kep…

Where have taxes been oscillating so much that you've seen multiple cycles of this?

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#179

Post by kart23 »

Wealth tax unconstitutionality is not some 'dream'. I think that a wealth tax is a great idea, but I dont see any good way of implementing it. The constitution (16th amendment) only specifically allows for income taxes, not property taxes. What makes the famous carriage tax legal is that its a tax on consumption and spending, and is therefore not a direct tax. The carriage tax was never argued to be a property tax, thats the key distinction here. The only way to pass it is to argue its a consumption and usage tax, or get every state to pass a wealth tax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_tax#U.S._constitutional...

There's actually a decent amount of precedent that holds the property tax as a direct tax, and therefore unconstitutional on the federal level. Even a liberal court would make this decision I think.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#180

Post by vkou »

czbond wrote: post #169
vkou wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly 50% of Americans are children, students, and retirees.

I should have been more literal - 50% of federal taxpayers.

The median household income in the US is $68,000, I'm pretty sure that household pays federal taxes.

Should we move the goalposts again?

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