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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#171

Post by renewiltord »

Apocryphon wrote: post #165
renewiltord wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you made it. Congratulations. Happy to share this land with someone as articulate as you. And I'm glad you share my fears. I'm asking for the equivalent of an ignition interlock device. It is not the world. It merely prevents subversion against the cause. Easy to do. Shuts down my line of argument entirely and honestly, I'll be fine with that.

I promise you, if I was to ever start a labor union, I will include that particular proviso.

If so, you will find me a trivial recruit and true believer.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#172

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #168
heavyset_go wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you can win me over trivially I think you will find that most unions support immigration, and provide protections for immigrants. For example, the largest union in the US, the AFL-CIO, is currently running a "Protect All Workers" campaign[1] specifically for immigrant protections: > In recent weeks, the federal government took vital steps to address our national health emergency and mitigate its economic damage…

The AFL are the guys I allude to in the story of Avalon/Peru/Excelsior. Those who would flip from enemy to friend when they are weak can flip from friend to enemy when they are strong just as easily. I'm willing to believe, but no core tenet of the AFL-CIO is considered immutable. Given that, and given that they shift with the breeze, perhaps you can see why their words ring hollow. Today, they feel this. When tomorr…

How many modern day organizations have not changed their policies after a century of change? How many of them do you yourself belong to?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#173

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #171
Apocryphon wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I promise you, if I was to ever start a labor union, I will include that particular proviso.

If so, you will find me a trivial recruit and true believer.

Great! Until then, I will simply accept that you are someone with valid fears, but based on your insistence on ignoring abundant evidence, is arguing on bad faith.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#174

Post by polygotdomain »

username90 wrote: post #159
polygotdomain wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how a non-existent tech union is instantly popping up out of nowhere with both a massive bureaucracy, and a squad of enforcers to beat people up for not joining. Please, stop bringing up historical anecdotes as reasons why a tech union wouldn't work. It's funny how you don't bring up things like strong health care and training as anecdotes on the other side. The question of whether or not there will be "union…

If kickstarter is an example then they forced 37 persons to join it, so it is correct to fear unions forcing you to join. "with 46 employees voting in favor of the move and 37 opposing it". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-un...

A vote on formation of a union does not mean employees are forced to join it. A union also doesn't mean anything if there isn't an agreement with the employer. A union also doesn't mean anything if it's members are not going to withhold their services if they don't come to an agreement that is deemed acceptable by it's members.

Unions are also about leveraging power. While someone can try to start a union with any number of people, how much they can actually negotiate is going to hinge a lot on that number. Is 55% of the workforce enough to have significant leverage? I don't know and it depends on what the union wants. Would the union be able to reach an agreement with the employer that would force the others to join the union? That would seem like quite a stretch to me.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#175

Post by doggosphere »

skybrian wrote: post #162
doggosphere wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Unions are owned/compromised of workers. Workers vote on issues that affect them. Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Absolutely true, but if demand wasn't so high and supply wasn't so short, what happens to worker leverage and t…

As you might have noticed, voting is no guarantee that good leaders are elected, nor does it necessarily prevent corruption. "We the people" is a founding myth, and it's our myth, but it's still a political myth similar to the divine right of kings, a way of justifying the rule of the many by the few. The leaders are not the masses, no matter what anyone pretends. (I'm not saying I have a better idea, but let's not b…

All systems have the potential for corruption.

A representational "democracy", compared to other systems, has the least potential for corruption.

If unions do in fact give workers more representation/power, than game theory says it is a worthwhile trade off, as we expect average worker gains to be net positive of any corruption losses.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#176

Post by renewiltord »

Apocryphon wrote: post #169
renewiltord wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly no priest starts a sermon to his flock with "Since God exists". But this is not a church. I'm not a parishioner. And your creed have aimed to harm me in the past. It will take more.

Perhaps an imperfect allusion, given that most Abrahamic religious services involve recitation of prayers and affirmations that restate basic principles about the identity and nature of God. When has a modern day labor union operating in the tech industry harmed you in the past?

Haha, quite so, quite so. Having been raised an atheist, my memories of my Catholic School recitations are imperfect but you are clearly correct.

The modern day / ancient day distinction is akin to the difference between the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Kingdom of God: it is obvious to adherents and invisible to those without.

Creating distinctions temporally does me no benefit. What has been can be once again. What was done to my great-grandparents can be done to me. The entities that did these things can revert to their atavistic forms. Except, except, except if they fix their forms forward. Something I will gladly accept.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#177

Post by renewiltord »

Apocryphon wrote: post #172
renewiltord wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AFL are the guys I allude to in the story of Avalon/Peru/Excelsior. Those who would flip from enemy to friend when they are weak can flip from friend to enemy when they are strong just as easily. I'm willing to believe, but no core tenet of the AFL-CIO is considered immutable. Given that, and given that they shift with the breeze, perhaps you can see why their words ring hollow. Today, they feel this. When tomorr…

How many modern day organizations have not changed their policies after a century of change? How many of them do you yourself belong to?

None. And I am happy to belong to many who have changed. But I accept each one with care. As you can see.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#178

Post by renewiltord »

Apocryphon wrote: post #173
renewiltord wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If so, you will find me a trivial recruit and true believer.

Great! Until then, I will simply accept that you are someone with valid fears, but based on your insistence on ignoring abundant evidence, is arguing on bad faith.

If that's what it must be, then that's what it must be.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#179

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #176
Apocryphon wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps an imperfect allusion, given that most Abrahamic religious services involve recitation of prayers and affirmations that restate basic principles about the identity and nature of God. When has a modern day labor union operating in the tech industry harmed you in the past?

Haha, quite so, quite so. Having been raised an atheist, my memories of my Catholic School recitations are imperfect but you are clearly correct. The modern day / ancient day distinction is akin to the difference between the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Kingdom of God : it is obvious to adherents and invisible to those without.…

Not just Catholics; the Shahada is a core prayer to Muslims, and I'd imagine most fundamental Jewish prayers affirm the oneness of G-d as well.

Given that the FLDS is an excommunicated body that is infamous for continuing disavowed practices, it shouldn't be too difficult to distinguish between them even among Gentiles (there's an HBO show based on them).

> Except, except, except if they fix their forms forward

Except, labor unions, like nearly any other social organization (even churches!) have changed and modernized over the past century. Your insistence that those present and visible changes are false is bordering on irrational zealotry. It drains both energy and meaning out of a debate and clearly you want to persist in your indefensible concern trolling. Sous vide? Sola fide.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#180

Post by doggosphere »

dpc_pw wrote: post #145
heavyset_go wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power Nonsense. Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay all colluded with each other to keep tech worker compensation below its market rate[1]. Good luck negotiating a group health plan that an employer buys as a single employee. > Given all that I personally think the downsides of unions in tech…

> The facts are that white collar employees that are union members have higher pay[2], better benefits, more time off, and report higher life satisfaction[3] compared to their non-union peers. Of course they do. Because Unions drive competitiveness down, decrease efficiency, increase costs and so on. A lot of people would be very satisfied if they didn't have to work as hard and their paycheck would be pretty effortl…

I noticed how you switched up the stats here:

Why are public teachers collectively not doing great job despite second in the world spending per student.

US government spending on education is high. However, US average teacher salary is ranked 7th in the world (Canada pays better, apparently). You're trying to attribute this spending inefficiency to teacher unions, where the problem is poor government spending (educational-industrial complex). Selling to governments is a big business; more software, more technology, more programming. Education in America has become commercial industry. That spending should probably be on teacher training programs instead.

https://naibuzz.com/10-countries-with-the-highest-teachers-s...

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