Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data • Hacker News Board

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#171

Post by jononor » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:02 PM UTC

jjcon wrote: post #111

hohohn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how every company rationalizes the mass collection of user data. "Oh lets collect many terabytes of every user-action in case we need to one day discontinue a feature". It's a book. You don't need to collect and track every fucking action I do to find out if your stupid highlighter is being used in Poland.

Whether you like it or not this collection does lead to better products - that is why you think every company does it because those that don’t usually die out. Understanding your users is vitally important. Privacy LARPers are a tiny segment of the market, the average person doesn’t really care if their ‘usage of the highlighter function is tracked’

Do you have something to back up the claim that this kind of data collection leads to better products?

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#172

Post by neiman » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:02 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #124

neiman wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you do lost of those things by sending encrypted data to Amazon, and getting back the encrypted data from them? They act as a storage in most cases, not as a server, no?

You'd have to figure out some kind of secure key sharing mechanism between phones, tablets, web browsers, and e-readers. Or, you can trust that a position in a book (bookmarks, notes, etc.) is not sensitive information that really needs to be encrypted. This is my - perhaps overly pragmatic - position.

If I can't think of a way to abuse me by having my data, it doesn't mean that someone else doesn't. I would really rather avoid all this discussion by them not having my data to begin with.

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#173

Post by pwinnski » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

badRNG wrote: post #13

I'm sure someone like me always has the same "hot take" in every thread regarding this, but I honestly still love reading physical books. After spending a day weary of interacting with screens all day, there is something nice about tapping in to this activity that humans have done for hundreds of years. Sure, e-ink is easier on the eyes, but isolating myself with a good book can be a near spiritual experience.

I read, on average, about two books per week on Kindle.

I buy, on average, about one book per month on paper.

There's nothing quite like the smell and feel and experience of paper books, and there's nothing quite like the convenience of Kindle.

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#174

Post by TedDoesntTalk » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

neiman wrote: post #157

shmel wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you genuinely surprised at this point? Pretty much all big tech companies were caught outright lying about user data collection. Why would you assume by default they don't try to get as much as possible? They are all based on ML, of course they do. A year or two ago Amazon was swearing that humans don't listen to Alexa conversations until we learned they actually do. IIRC Amazon tried to backpedal: "of course the…

Of course I'm not surprised, but I refuse to accept this as normal.

But your refusal doesn’t change the reality.

Kinda like refusing to believe that climate change is real does not change the reality.

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#175

Post by falcolas » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #166

falcolas wrote: post #109

This statement - "None of these requests appear to be used for customer features like last read location." - bugs me, because it's fairly obviously false, and detracts from the real concerns. To sync a "last read page" across devices, you need to send a location back to Amazon. It's also appropriate to tie a location to a device, so you can pick the appropriate device to sync your position from. And, when you highlig…

I honestly don't mind the FUD as long as user don't have options. Amazon deserves the bad press in that case. Kindle is an awesome screen reader, but such features make it a bad device. A good device just had an option "sync usage data to Amazon account" . People suggest it is a technical impossibility. It is just a shame that you have no options. Had to quickly search if my kindle has GPS capabilities. Gladly it doe…

I pointed this out in a thread, but with the e-reader devices at least, you do have an option. It's opt-out, which sucks, but it does exist.

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#176

Post by TedDoesntTalk » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

BCharlie wrote: post #127

falcolas wrote: post #109

This statement - "None of these requests appear to be used for customer features like last read location." - bugs me, because it's fairly obviously false, and detracts from the real concerns. To sync a "last read page" across devices, you need to send a location back to Amazon. It's also appropriate to tie a location to a device, so you can pick the appropriate device to sync your position from. And, when you highlig…

I mention that the data that appears to be used for those purposes is sent again in a separate request to a separate end point, so we have two types of requests: last read location, and reading analytics. Sorry it wasn't clear, I'll try to improve the wording.

Can you provide the URLs so we can use pihole to block the requests?

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#177

Post by jabirali » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

jjcon wrote: post #102

neiman wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I would have known that by buying Kindle I end up working for Amazon, I indeed wouldn't have bought one. It's deception. Please put on the box a big warning, "THIS DEVICE COLLECTS YOUR DATA", similar to those on cigarette boxes.

It’s called the terms of service?

Terms of service are written to be understandable by lawyers, not average end-users. At this point, understanding every terms of service, privacy policy, etc. presented by every piece of software, website, etc. encountered by an average user would require them to spend hours per week on it. This is assuming that they even have the language skills necessary to decipher the document (think of non-native English speakers, people without higher education, and so on.)

Creative Commons was on the right track with their human-readable licenses, see e.g. this example [1]. Apple is on the right track with their App Store "nutrition labels" [2]. This is what we need for people to make informed decisions. For physical objects like a Kindle, I believe such "nutrition labels" should ideally be put on the box (physical store) and website (online stores), so the consumer is aware before they go home and turn on the device (this makes it easier to compare the Kindle to a Boox or Nook at the store).

[1]: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/

[2]: https://mashable.com/article/apple-privacy-nutrition-labels-...

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#178

Post by technofiend » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #109

This statement - "None of these requests appear to be used for customer features like last read location." - bugs me, because it's fairly obviously false, and detracts from the real concerns. To sync a "last read page" across devices, you need to send a location back to Amazon. It's also appropriate to tie a location to a device, so you can pick the appropriate device to sync your position from. And, when you highlig…

The aggravating bit - beyond the fact that Amazon doesn't let you opt out, is that this sometimes affects performance. Switching over to the kindle app occasionally hangs. Killing the app and restarting it usually works, but there are times when I have to go to airplane mode and kill and restart the app just to open a book!

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#179

Post by falcolas » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

gambler wrote: post #165

falcolas wrote: post #109

This statement - "None of these requests appear to be used for customer features like last read location." - bugs me, because it's fairly obviously false, and detracts from the real concerns. To sync a "last read page" across devices, you need to send a location back to Amazon. It's also appropriate to tie a location to a device, so you can pick the appropriate device to sync your position from. And, when you highlig…

Why is syncing across devices not opt-in? Why doesn't Kindle tell you which data it sends and when?

Sync is opt-in.

And, good question. It would be nice, though I'm sure they've buried it in their multi-page privacy doc somewhere.

EDIT: No, it's not opt-in. Reading failure on my part.

Re: Kindle collects a surprisingly large amount of data

#180

Post by thdrdt » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

kofejnik wrote: post #145

thdrdt wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your comment is unfair. Every webserver logs the IP address and the URL visited. Do you think most people know this? Do deverlopers push against this?

strawman; you visit someone else’s server, and therefore they get data about your visit; with kindle, you’re using your own device and there’s no expectation that amazon will be snooping

"you visit someone else’s server, and therefore they get data about your visit"

I don't think the average person knows this. A lot of people even have no clue about internet. So there is no consent most of the time. And we, the developers, just let the logs running.

"with kindle, you’re using your own device and there’s no expectation that amazon will be snooping"

Well I would absolutely have this expectation. I expect a device that is connected to the internet snooping on me. Then there is the Amazon brand. I absolutely don't trust them so I expect them to snoop in me.

But to be clear: I absolutely hate that my privacy is gone. I use all kinds of blockers to disable tracking and I also agree with jacquesm snooping is wrong. But I still think his point is too black and white and therefore unfair.