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How to Write in Plain English

plainenglish.co.uk

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Re: How to Write in Plain English

#171

Post by quietbritishjim »

SagelyGuru wrote: post #154

Am I the only one who finds The List of Words to Avoid rather depressing? I mean I get what they are trying to do: minimise the number of letters. Yet, language is also about variety and not being really, really dull. Perhaps also about not treating your readers like idiots? Most of those slightly longer words look like perfectly legitimate alternatives in that regard.

It would be depressing if they were suggesting this style of language for literature, but they are absolutely not suggesting that. They are suggesting it for bureaucratic situations, like a utility company sending a bill or a goverrment body issuing notes about how to fill in a driving licence application form. A utility bill is never going to be a thrill to read, so if using simpler language means that some recipients understand they're exempt from a charge when they wouldn't have realised otherwise, or are simply able to read it a bit faster, then that's a clear win.

Frankly, it's more important to maximise the number of people that understand government advice than it is to maximise your enjoyment of application forms.

The advice is not even necessarily for situations that are partway between factual and pleasure, like a blog post or your example of a news article (or a HN comment!). In those cases it could still be helpful to bear the advice in mind, but without taking it too seriously.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#173

Post by mynegation »

wlll wrote: post #170
aazaa wrote: post #148

The article doesn't mention the way that word placement changes the meaning of sentences. From a video I recently saw but can't recall, consider these sentences: - Although John is a nice guy, he beats his dog. - Although John beats his dog, he's a nice guy. - John is a nice guy, but he beats his dog. - John beats his dog, but he's a nice guy. These are all plain English sentences, but will be interpreted quite diffe…

I'm struggling to read those as being different. UK English reader.

Non-native speaker here. I read it as an emphasis on the second part. First sentence makes a point that John deserves judgement, the second one that he deserves leniency, on the net balance of his qualities.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#174

Post by mynegation »

nicbou wrote: post #160
aazaa wrote: post #148

The article doesn't mention the way that word placement changes the meaning of sentences. From a video I recently saw but can't recall, consider these sentences: - Although John is a nice guy, he beats his dog. - Although John beats his dog, he's a nice guy. - John is a nice guy, but he beats his dog. - John beats his dog, but he's a nice guy. These are all plain English sentences, but will be interpreted quite diffe…

> For example, readers tend to latch onto the last part of a sentence. Everything before "but" is often bullshit. "I'm not racist, but". "No offense, but".

Maybe not the best example, as it is hard to imagine someone being nice and beating the dog, but the point still stands if you pick up something less extreme: "John is a good friend but forgets my birthday every year".

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#175

Post by rswail »

DrBazza wrote: post #56

English vs. business English. Pre-boarding is just boarding. Pre-booking is just booking. Pre-prefixing everything. Sigh. "Please revert" - you mean 'reply', not 'return to a former state'. "Ping me" - ugh. And my favourite.... "Learnings" - you mean lessons. "What drivings have you been on?" ... "What journeys have you been on?"

"We should socialize the learnings from this discussion."

Is close to a real sentence pronounced upon us from a management type during one of their endless Zoom meetings.

Someone sent in a semi-private chat shared by some of us, "They meant, we should share what we've learned."

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#176

Post by ThePadawan »

dgellow wrote: post #133
ThePadawan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a Brazilian roommate who could second this. He (jokingly) complained this was the absolute worst when dealing with split-proposition-verbs: E. g. "aufgeben" translated part-by-part is "upgive", so "to surrender" or "to give up" in English. However, in sth. like 3rd position singular, the form would be "er gibt auf" ("he gives up"). But in German, the object goes between "gives" and "up". Thus, my roommate menti…

I have in mind an idea for a movie scenario where someone important is on their death bed and says their last words, and nobody can tell what they actually meant because it may be missing the second part of the verb, resulting in a potentially completely different meaning :)

"Was ist der Unterschied zwischen einem Raben und einem Schreibtisch"?

As you mention, it gets even screwier given the opportunity to put a "nicht" (not) at the very end of a sentence to lead listeners down a garden path.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#177

Post by [deleted] »

mynegation wrote: post #174
nicbou wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, readers tend to latch onto the last part of a sentence. Everything before "but" is often bullshit. "I'm not racist, but". "No offense, but".

Maybe not the best example, as it is hard to imagine someone being nice and beating the dog, but the point still stands if you pick up something less extreme: "John is a good friend but forgets my birthday every year".

[deleted]

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#178

Post by graeme »

wlll wrote: post #170
aazaa wrote: post #148

The article doesn't mention the way that word placement changes the meaning of sentences. From a video I recently saw but can't recall, consider these sentences: - Although John is a nice guy, he beats his dog. - Although John beats his dog, he's a nice guy. - John is a nice guy, but he beats his dog. - John beats his dog, but he's a nice guy. These are all plain English sentences, but will be interpreted quite diffe…

I'm struggling to read those as being different. UK English reader.

Indeed there’s no difference. There’s a possibility of different emphasis, but it would depend on a wider context.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#179

Post by jagged-chisel »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #131
brain5ide wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had this joke. A meeting of faculty heads is taking place. The topic - funding. The chairman says: "Hey, physicists, why are you so expensive? You need all those gadgets and materials to perform your experiments. Look at the mathematicians. All they need to produce a research paper are a box of paper, a box of pencils, and a trash can." "We don't even need trash cans, sir." announces the dean of Philosophy.

I guess they have an equivalent repository with roughly the same impact factor.

The janitor concurs.

Re: How to Write in Plain English

#180

Post by naringas »

jedimastert wrote: post #141
aclimatt wrote: post #100

I'd guess (almost) everyone wishes everyone else wrote in plain language. But there's potentially a more fundamental reason people don't. bambax in another comment pointed out the power of ambiguity, and that's one of the reasons especially in legal / government, but there's another. Language, specifically jargon, is an expression of culture. It's an expression of power, education, experience, or lack thereof. It's a…

> "would you say you practice disruptive innovation methodology?" My eye genuinely twitched reading this sentence

there's something illogical about "disruptive innovation methodology"

how can something disruptive and innovative -- which I take to imply unpredictable novelty -- be methodological?

I take methodology to imply that something has become normalized; that it has become common enough and happened enough times that its practice can be systematically described as a method.

"Our scientific and engineering production pipeline makes 10 disruptive innovations every year! 100% satisfaction guarantee. invest now!"

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