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Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

abcnews.go.com

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Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#171

Post by skinkestek »

wonderwonder wrote: post #121
dirtnugget wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering how one could be so bad at estimating weight. But yes, it’s a lot.

I would be really surprised if they estimated this poorly and would guess they were just irritated by him and decided to up the dose as punishment. If I am wrong then they receive zero training when estimating weight and multiple officers are terrible at it. To mistakenly confuse a 140lb for 220lb is poor judgement to the point that it strains credulity.

FWIW: My wife work in health care and just a couple of months or so told me how difficult it can be to estimate the weight of a person. She had recently seen some pictures with examples of persons and their actual weights and it had surprised even her.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#172

Post by JohnBooty »

anon9001 wrote: post #26
burfog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to propose a method, and we'll all object to that. Stopping an uncooperative person is guaranteed to be upsetting to somebody. That is fundamental to the problem. Every method tried so far has been objected to by squeamish people who refuse to understand. If we let criminals run amok, then we get a failed state, and then armed gangs form to impose their own idea of a justice system. I assure you, those arme…

I agree that all restraint methods are upsetting, but "inject with dissociative drugs" should really be a lot further down the list than "hit with stick". Personally, I favor hitting people with billy clubs, because it leaves evidence of what happened and it requires the police to actually take physical action against another human. Giving cops needles full of magic compliance juice seems less responsible to me. The…

   Personally, I favor hitting people with billy clubs, 
   because it leaves evidence of what happened and it 
   requires the police to actually take physical action 
   against another human
Like you say, there's not really a "good" choice, and I am not defending officers' actions during incidents like the killing (murder, IMO) of Elijah McCain.

But those police batons break bones. Also, there's evidence of ketamine sedation: they need to summon paramedics to perform the injection, etc.

So, I don't know. I'm sure we at least agree that the answer is to avoid letting things escalate to that point so frequently.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#173

Post by quadrifoliate »

GhostVII wrote: post #132

Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, because it is very safe relative to other sedatives. So the main concern should whether or not police are ordering EMS to administer it when it is not actually required (police do not administer it themselves), since I don't th…

8 cases across three years in one city, where some of those cases were just paramedics asking for a second opinion, does not seem to indicate a very widespread issue across the US, especially when the city being investigated is know to have a bad police department.

First of all, it's a big jump from "the article only mentions 8 cases across the US" to "there were only 8 cases across the US". The case of Elijah McClain, for instance, is in Denver.

And the issue seems to be one of cruel and unusual punishment. At least in the US, people expect the police to use and carry guns. They don't expect them to order paramedics to inject you with weird sedatives when you're under restraint, and especially not to make broadly reasonable decisions while doing so.

Look at the McClain case, he was 140 pounds with six officers restraining him, and they needed to inject ketamine? I wouldn't blame the paramedics for miscalculating the weight, they probably thought this was some enormous muscular man that six police officers couldn't hold down.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#175

Post by [deleted] »

corty wrote: post #145
GhostVII wrote: post #132

Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, because it is very safe relative to other sedatives. So the main concern should whether or not police are ordering EMS to administer it when it is not actually required (police do not administer it themselves), since I don't th…

Paramedics here are only allowed to do so if a doctor is not available and there is an emergency waranting using medication. After giving such medication, close monitoring and hospitalisation is mandatory, except if the physician arrives in time and releases the patient (which is very rare in such circumstances). The article never talks about a doctor arriving, an EKG, hospitalisation or any other appropriate measure…

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#176

Post by quickthrowman »

Yc4win wrote: post #151

To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.

> To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this.

I used to drink. Heavily. Enough where I would lose control and neighbors would call 911 because they were concerned. I was removed from my home and handcuffed and brought to the ER more than once. A couple times I went smoothly, but a few times I fought back, hard. One time I was told it took 5 people to subdue me and I kicked an ambulance driver in the head. Another time I fought so hard against the handcuffs that I have permanent nerve damage in my right wrist. I also have shoulder problems that may have stemmed from being restrained by police.

I would’ve rather been ketamined than kick an ambulance driver in the head or have nerve/physical damage to my body. If you’ve never completely lost control of yourself and fought against multiple people, you have no idea what they’re dealing with. Once I got to the ER, they dosed me with haloperidol anyways shrug Might as well have been ketamine when I was being detained.

I hate cops, but I think ketamine could potentially help in some situations where someone has lost their goddamn mind and is fighting back hard.

Edit: This all happened in the 3rd Precinct of Minneapolis, famous for murdering George Floyd

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#177

Post by fortran77 »

In most of these police death stories, there's at least a _tiny bit_ of a rationale for the police behavior.

In the case of Elijah McClain there's absolutely nothing I've seen or read in reliable news sources that indicates the police had any reason to be forceful with him or even to arrest him. It is simply outrageous.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#178

Post by tmp538394722 »

wittyreference wrote: post #160
Yc4win wrote: post #151

To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this. To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.

> powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" You’re waxing hyperbolic. It’s a sedative drug used in normal human clinical practice, and in many settings is preferable because it has -fewer- risks of complications than other sedatives. And while I’m highly critical of it’s being used without strict medical protocol, I’ve worked psych ED enough to understand that there are occasi…

Elijah McClain was not “ridiculously agitated”.

The video shows that police escalated every chance they got.

After receiving a phone call of a “suspicious person” they went from in their car to hands on Elijah in less than 10s.

In a matter of minutes Elijah was on the ground surrounded by a dozen officers.

They’re saying “was he suspected of anything”, “why are we here”?

They don’t even know why they’re there... but they know that they need to indiscriminately dominate a young black man until he’s puking and crying and ultimately has a heart attack.

Ridiculously agitated, my foot. They (Police) create the situation, then they (Police) prescribe ketamine. These are not the people who should be making these calls. No one should be allowed to have this kind of latitude when dealing with another human.

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