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Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

newstatesman.com

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Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#171

Post by bmcn2020 »

From the article: "Recalling the famous example of the pin factory that Adam Smith used to explain the division of labour, Russell imagined a new technology that will halve the amount of time it takes to make a pin. If the market for pins is already saturated, what will happen?

In a sane world, Russell thought, the factory would simply halve working hours, maintaining the same wages but greatly increasing the time that the workers could devote to the joys of leisure. But, as Russell observed, this rarely happens. Instead, the factory owner will opt to keep half the workers on the same hours and lay off the rest. The gains from the advances of technology will be realised not as an expansion of leisure but rather as drudgery for some and jobless destitution for others, with the savings enjoyed only by the winner, the factory owner."

This is, amazingly and depressingly, the only thing that will ever happen. This is capitalism, unfortunately, and profits flow up, not down. Capitalism seems to work best when the bottom feeders continue to feed at the bottom, in the same ways, without dramatic changes in behavior.

Can regulation fix this?

That's like asking if regulation can solve racism, or stop domestic violence. It can help, but it won't minimize it to such a significant level that it will mitigate the issue.

Russell's argument is great, but the cold harsh winds of our capitalist reality blow in the other direction.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#172

Post by ido »

marc_abonce wrote: post #142
grecy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The day I drove into Mexico it was a huge shock to see so many people around just enjoying their time - paying with their younger relatives on the beach, playing guitar, singing and dancing. My fascination and disbelief at the amount of leisure time everyone has continued for two years through all of Latin America, and then for another three years when I drove right around Africa. Having come from years grinding at a…

Where did you go? Because the average Mexican works more hours than every other OCDE country[1]. [1] https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm

You probably don't see these workers as a tourist (aside from workers in the service industry I guess). You see the people that are out having a leasurely time.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#173

Post by mettamage »

allenu wrote: post #121
caymanjim wrote: post #115

I'm a huge fan of sloth. I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week except for genuine emergencies (things like outages; being behind schedule never counts), and I'm close to drawing the line at four days a week. I always take at least three weeks off a year, and that's in a bad year. I take "mental health days" often and with no guilt. If you…

I like your attitude. How, if I may ask, did you end up with your current philosophy? Was it through past experiences where people did take your time and you gave in? I love the idea of taking lots of time off, but on a personal level I have a lot of guilt surrounding that. I know it's not rational since ultimately it's my life, but it's still something I need to work on to get over. If you have tips on changing my m…

I identify with his post. I always had a rebellious streak when it comes to people judging me. In return, I don’t judge other people myself. It also saves a lot of energy :)

That’s how I don’t feel guilty. I am not doing anything and you can do whatever you want in life too.

I find it tough to achieve though. I am currently at 4 days per week but would like to be at 3.5 days, that’s my optimum (lower than 3 days and I will go insane of not exercising my mind).

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#174

Post by bmcn2020 »

chii wrote: post #143
caymanjim wrote: post #115

I'm a huge fan of sloth. I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week except for genuine emergencies (things like outages; being behind schedule never counts), and I'm close to drawing the line at four days a week. I always take at least three weeks off a year, and that's in a bad year. I take "mental health days" often and with no guilt. If you…

> it's not that hard to achieve ... from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career. i highly doubt somebody on a minimum wage job can choose to work only 4 days a week.

highly agree

> I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more.

Definitely speaking from a place of privilege. Single moms living in poverty don't have the luxury to care for her mental health. She probably can't take even a few days off, voluntarily, much rather months or years.

Let me ask you (caymanjim), in the months and years you take off, how do you subsist? The average American has, what, less than $500 in savings?

Privilege colors your views on reality, and I would love for all of us to get there, but let's not imagine that this "isn't hard to do". It is. It really is.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#175

Post by ashes-of-sol »

doliveira wrote: post #157
chii wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not that hard to achieve ... from minimum wage jobs through decades of professional career. i highly doubt somebody on a minimum wage job can choose to work only 4 days a week.

Yeah, minimum wage jobs mostly won't expect you to work beyond your normal periods and days, but they definitely won't want you working less than that. The weirdest part, though, is voluntary taking several months or even a year between jobs. Now that is proper privilege.

They absolutely will work you less, to avoid triggering certain benefits obligations

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#176

Post by krick »

dack wrote: post #152
horns4lyfe wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not agree more. I'm pretty early in my software career after a few years as a military officer, and if that job taught me one thing, it's that NOTHING at work is as important as you think it is. Looking back on those times, even in a job where lives are sometimes on the line, I can't believe how seriously I took some things and how much more fun I could have had. It's a disappointing lesson to have to learn i…

i still remember the time (early in my career) i was summoned to jury duty and tried to register an "undue hardship" with the judge because i had a project deadline coming up. i genuinely thought it was that important, but looking back it was really not a big deal at all (and the judge knew it) :)

It's not like spending your time on jury duty is in any way better than spending it on work (or pretty much everything, for that matter).

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#177

Post by fzil »

sudeepj wrote: post #166
horns4lyfe wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not agree more. I'm pretty early in my software career after a few years as a military officer, and if that job taught me one thing, it's that NOTHING at work is as important as you think it is. Looking back on those times, even in a job where lives are sometimes on the line, I can't believe how seriously I took some things and how much more fun I could have had. It's a disappointing lesson to have to learn i…

Highly recommend to watch the clip from the movie Office Space (only 54 sec long) [1] The guy with the moustache is a blue collar worker and the other one is white collar worker (actually in Tech/IT) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lmW2tZP2kU

That’s gotta be one of my favourite movies of all time. This and the printer killing scene are hilarious.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#178

Post by trabant00 »

> Instead, the factory owner will opt to keep half the workers on the same hours and lay off the rest.

People are the hardest resource to manage for a business. Finding them. Keeping them. Motivating them. Training them. Etc. Double the workers with half the working time is a lot more expensive.

So business will never choose to do this. If this would be better for society (emphasis on IF) then only regulation will make it happen.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#179

Post by ta1234567890 »

allenu wrote: post #121
caymanjim wrote: post #115

I'm a huge fan of sloth. I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week except for genuine emergencies (things like outages; being behind schedule never counts), and I'm close to drawing the line at four days a week. I always take at least three weeks off a year, and that's in a bad year. I take "mental health days" often and with no guilt. If you…

I like your attitude. How, if I may ask, did you end up with your current philosophy? Was it through past experiences where people did take your time and you gave in? I love the idea of taking lots of time off, but on a personal level I have a lot of guilt surrounding that. I know it's not rational since ultimately it's my life, but it's still something I need to work on to get over. If you have tips on changing my m…

Can't answer for caymanjim. Personally, I now work about 2-5 hours per week, mostly just meeting some people (don't have to do anything besides talking to them).

What I realized early in my professional career was that position trumps everything. For example, if you are born into a great enough position, you are set for life, pretty much regardless of anything else. Then I figured out (slowly over time through trial and error), which positions I could move to from the one I was in, where I could either: a) do less work for same pay, or b) get more pay for same work. Although a lot of times switching positions required intense "extra" work.

In the end however, it seems to mostly just been a lot of luck in the way things played out, together with an intense desire to, in the long term, reduce my work-related load/responsibilities.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#180

Post by Godel_unicode »

krick wrote: post #176
dack wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i still remember the time (early in my career) i was summoned to jury duty and tried to register an "undue hardship" with the judge because i had a project deadline coming up. i genuinely thought it was that important, but looking back it was really not a big deal at all (and the judge knew it) :)

It's not like spending your time on jury duty is in any way better than spending it on work (or pretty much everything, for that matter).

You don't think doing your part to guarantee your fellow citizens get their (in the US at least) constitutionally guaranteed right to a jury trial is "worth it"?
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