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Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

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Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#171
post #120
post #3

I found this post a shame. (The post itself, not putting it here; I love seeing math posts on HN, and automatically upvote. Bringing hackers and mathematicians together is highly worthwhile for both.) Usually Tao's posts are so insightful, and crystallise some idea so perfectly that it feels like I was just on the cusp of discovering it myself—a rare talent, and hard to cultivate since it goes against the ego. In thi…

I'm not sure I agree about the fact that notation is a pseudo-mathematisation. For example in Mathematica there is a (mostly deprecated) package called Notation`[0] that does just this kind of stuff. I have to admit that it's not really used in production code anymore as MakeBoxes and MakeExpression are more fine-grained and robust. Thus said I have to admit that the transformation between 2-D boxes and M-expression…

> I'm not sure I agree about the fact that notation is a pseudo-mathematisation.

I definitely don't think that notation is pseudo-mathematisation; good notation is inordinately powerful in enabling good mathematics (and bad notation can make even simple mathematics hard). What I meant to describe as pseudo-mathematisation was the discussion of notation in what seemed to me in a (to me) unnecessarily formally mathematical way.

Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#172
post #86
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Math is taught gradually, introducing concepts in child-friendly ways, and moving up towards "adult" notation. Note that if you programmed in FP languages, you'd have to unlearn the "descriptive variable names" thing you were taught. Once you deal with abstractions, names cease to be meaningful. If the most you can say about a parameter to a higher order function is that it is "a function", then "f" is the best n…

> If the most you can say about a parameter to a higher order function is that it is "a function", then "f" is the best name for it Of course. But even in FP languages you don’t name all your functions “f”! At some level of abstraction, sure, you use “i” for index variables, etc., but once you back out of that low level, you are going to be naming things that are less abstract.

Agreed. I'd say Math is a lot like the abstract parts of FP, and so short variable names make sense there, just like they do in higher order FP functions. Choosing "more descriptive" names risks locking you into a specific metaphor and prevents you from seeing the big picture, which seems doubly dangerous in Math.

Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think > speed = distance / time is less clear than > speed is the ratio of distance over time ? To me the first equation is genuinely easier to read for the purposes of understanding, not just for formal manipulation. For larger equations the difference is only more stark, not less. I have a maths PhD so your comment about symbols being for novices doesn't apply. I suppose the beauty of the first equati…

But that example is a little bit artificial, isn't it? A lot of mathematical concepts are more complex than that and sometimes symbols are not the best option. Say, for example the definition of Hausdorff space, in words and symbols: - Any two distinct points in the space have disjoint neighbourhoods. - ∀x,y ∈ X with x ≠ y, ∃U,V ⊂ X s.t. x ∈ U, y ∈ V and U ∩ V = ∅. Another example would be Navier-Stokes equations, wh…

I find it a bit funny that the whole discussion seems to be on what definition is better. The two complements each other perfectly, and reading them actually makes both clearer for me.

Since there is in the modern world almost no use case where you're heavily space contrained (maybe the final print version of an article for some publications ? I'm not that familiar with the research world), I don't see why you'd try to choose one instead of including both where needed.

Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think > speed = distance / time is less clear than > speed is the ratio of distance over time ? To me the first equation is genuinely easier to read for the purposes of understanding, not just for formal manipulation. For larger equations the difference is only more stark, not less. I have a maths PhD so your comment about symbols being for novices doesn't apply. I suppose the beauty of the first equati…

But that example is a little bit artificial, isn't it? A lot of mathematical concepts are more complex than that and sometimes symbols are not the best option. Say, for example the definition of Hausdorff space, in words and symbols: - Any two distinct points in the space have disjoint neighbourhoods. - ∀x,y ∈ X with x ≠ y, ∃U,V ⊂ X s.t. x ∈ U, y ∈ V and U ∩ V = ∅. Another example would be Navier-Stokes equations, wh…

I think my overall point is that symbols can significantly make things simpler, not that they always do. It's very much like the analogy with diagrams that I made in that comment: making things visual can help enormously, but a bad diagram or equation can be as unclear, or worse, than some descriptive text.

Communication is hard, and unfortunately doing it well requires experience and thought rather than simplistic rules like "always use symbols rather than words" or vice-versa.

Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#176
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>s = d/t Slightly worse than that. That equation is always written as v = s/t. v represents velocity and s represents distance, for some reason.

This is (velocity) = (displacement) / (time). s is used because of the Latin word _spatium_ for space. If I remember correctly, there was a difference between distance and displacement. (displacement is "net").

Displacement is a vector whereas distance is a scalar (similarly for velocity vs speed). Even if you restrict to 1 dimension there's a difference as displacement (and velocity) can be negative.

Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#177
post #49

Mathematical notation is great at facilitating formal manipulations. This is its critical feature, and without it we would get stuck at the level of ancient mathematics. This is the reason it was invented a few hundred years ago in the first place. That said, I find that notation is often abused in texts as a mere substitute for the normal human language which, while allowing to compress the text, does in fact nothin…

Math symbols are a minor issue for me. What confuses me the most are descriptions of mathematical concepts. For example, Wikipedia describes a 'field' like this: "In mathematics, a field is a set on which addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are defined and behave as the corresponding operations on rational and real numbers do." It doesn't make sense to me. What does it mean if an operation 'is defined…

It sounds very much to me like you would like mathematicians to change our notation to accommodate someone who has not put in the effort to learn mathematics. Do you wish the same from structural engineers? Programmers? Physicists? Medical doctors? Musicians?

> "In mathematics, a field is a set on which addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are defined and behave as the corresponding operations on rational and real numbers do."

This isn't a mathematical definition of a field. This is an encyclopedia's intuitive definition. It is a good one, in my opinion, as it'll evoke the correct definition in a person who is trained at mathematics, and hopefully convey the gist of the idea to someone who is not. Very good for one sentence! But a mathematical definition it is not!

A mathematical definition of a field would be as follows:

BEGIN DEFINITION

A field is a set F together with two functions A:F×F→F and M:F×F→F and two elements z∈F and o∈F that together satisfy the following properties:

ASSOCIATIVITY OF A: A(A(a, b), c) = A(a, A(b, c)) for all a,b,c∈F.

ASSOCIATIVITY OF M: Same as above with M in place of A.

COMMUTATIVITY OF A: A(a, b) = A(b, a) for all a,b∈F.

COMMUTATIVITY OF A: Same as above with M in place of A.

NEUTRALITY OF z WRT A: A(a, z) = a for all a∈F.

NEUTRALITY OF e WRT M: M(a, o) = a for all a∈F.

INVERSE FOR A: For all a∈F, there exists an element na∈F such that A(a, na) = z.

INVERSE FOR M: For all a∈F such that a≠z, there exists an element ra∈F such that M(a, ra) = o.

M DISTRIBUTES OVER A: M(a, A(b, c)) = A(M(a, b), M(a, c)) for all a,b,c∈F.

END DEFINITION.

(This definition presupposes that one knows what a set is under a standard framework.)

Since this notation is cumbersome, it is common to write A(a,b) as a+b and M(a,b) as a·b or ab. Likewise, z if often written 0 and and o is often written 1 (or e). Similarly, na is often written -a and ra is often written 1/a, but do take care to recall that "-a" and "1/a" are just symbols. One typically compresses notation even further, and writes "a + -b" as "a - b" (not to be confused for the juxtaposition of a and -b).

Do you feel better about this definition than Wikipedia's informal one? I invite you to scribble out a verification that for example the reals form a field under this definition (with ordinary addition as A, ordinary multiplication as M, ordinary 0 as z, ordinary 1 as o).

> Because if the field had a limited number of elements and you added the last two (highest) elements together, the property which requires that the result also be present in the same set could not be met because the result would be greater than the highest element in that set...

You're reading too much into "behave like the corresponding operations on real numbers do". One does not demand that addition preserves order. Notice how there is no reference to ordering or elements being "larger" or "smaller" in the definition above. It is for example the case that in the field of two elements, 1+1=0. That's fine.

> The problem is that if you start with a highly abstracted math concept and you dig through all the links and definitions of sub-concepts, they all have huge gaps like this

Not at all. You are trying to do rigorous mathematics using informal statements (not to detract from the informal statement; someone who has seen the formal definition of a lot of mathematical structure can almost surely reconstruct the correct formal definition of a field in a second from the informal one).

> I think math definitions should be more elaborate and repetitive if necessary.

So mathematicians should make communication between ourselves more cumbersome in order to please outsiders? I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound like a gatekeeper, but this is ridiculous.

> They should not try to sound terse and clever. They should not assume that the reader can fill in the gaps.

Do you demand this of musicians and engineers and chefs and mechanics and pilots and doctors and nurses too?

> The most rational readers will not be able to fill in the gaps because rational people know the dangers of making assumptions.

The most rational readers who have studied mathematics will. To a point, of course. There is often a tradeoff to be made, but your blanket statement is just plain wrong.

Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#178
post #91

Is it just me, or does probability theory in general have fairly terrible notation? Ambiguity between random variables and their distributions because of them simply being distinguished by being upper-case or lower-case, writing likelihood functions alternatively with an L() or p(), and using p() (with different arguments) to refer to different probability distributions. Perhaps I'm just having such a difficult time…

IMHO you are absolutely right. I would add that also it mixes reading from left to right with from right to left (think: P(b|a) P(a)). Personally, I really dislike that it made the trend that we use:

v_after = A_3 A_2 A_1 v

not (what I would consider more straightforward)

v_after = v A_1 A_2 A_3

Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"does in fact nothing to help the reader better understand what is being said" For a mathematician it is the opposite, they just wish it would be written with symbols so that they could know precisely what the book is trying to say

I don't think this is true in general. It may be true for a novice, who needs all the available help to keep them rigorous (but even then, there is definitely room for reading-to-build-intuition), but symbols definitely slow you down while you translate them.

Hm - well, I'm not a mathematician, but I am a programmer and I know that there are many, many times when I've seen somebody try to describe an algorithm in what ends up being incomprehensible English followed by a code example that actually clears up what it was they were trying to say.

Re: Terry Tao on some desirable properties of mathematical notation

#180
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember, as a callow college freshman waiting in the hallway of the math department to be able to go into a classroom reading an article which talked about mathematical writing and the first thing it said was to prefer English text over mathematical symbols in numerous cases (e.g., writing "For all $x$ in the Reals" over $\forall x\in\mathbb{R}$). As someone who was highly skilled in TeX at a time when such skills…

When I teach the intro to proofs class I require that they learn LaTeX. Some students like the availability of symbols so much that they go a bit nuts. Something like this sentence: $\forall x\in\mathbb{R}$ $\exists y$ that is $>$ the number $x+1$. Sigh.

This isn't exclusive to LaTeX; I think students in general just think that the symbols make things "more mathematical". I remember feeling this way briefly when I was first exposed to things like $\forall$ and $\exists$, and it wore off. This was in the late nineties; in theory I could have had access to a typesetting system but I was writing things by hand.
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