Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview • Hacker News Board

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#171

Post by 908B64B197 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #153

908B64B197 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. I'm extremely skeptical of bootcamps, especially after learning t…

While I have never done an algorithm style interview in 25 years of being a developer across 8 jobs, I have softened my stance to it. One of the biggest problems CS grads face is that they can’t break out of the cycle of not having experience and can’t get a job and can’t get a job so they can’t get experience. After the first job it gets easier. You can practice for algorithm type interviews and get a job. It also d…

> One of the biggest problems CS grads face is that they can’t break out of the cycle of not having experience and can’t get a job and can’t get a job so they can’t get experience

Serious CS programs often have employment rates really close to 100%.

I agree it's the great equalizer.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#172

Post by 908B64B197 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #157

908B64B197 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If HR is dictating how to conduct interviews for engineering staff, your company has some deep problems.

Care to back that up with any reasons? Engineers are absolutely not immune to cultural and gender biases, the evidence may be pointing the other way, that we currently have greater than average biases in tech. Isn’t oversight likely to make it better, not worse? While it may be a problem to not be able to ask some kinds of technical questions, like the GP comment alluded to, what is wrong with the idea of trying to l…

Some technical questions are really sink or swim. [0]

I've seen interviews get totally derailed by a simple FizzBuzz question. [1]

I wonder if the GRE situation doesn't have more to do with selection bias, ie applications with a score lower than a certain threshold aren't considered at all or that folks that aren't convinced of their ability in math & science simply won't apply to graduate school.

[0] https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22338415

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#173

Post by jakkyboi » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 6:06 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #155

TurkishPoptart wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's atrocious but most companies won't reveal specifics because _those_ people were hired via the same process. So it plays into survivorship bias. And nothing will change.

Could you elaborate on why you think it’s atrocious? I’m not sure I agree that the processes are hidden, every company I’ve ever worked for (several large corps you’ve heard of + several startups) talks about hiring practices publicly. Glassdoor and other sites, including HN, have all kinds of information & stories about what happens during interviews.

I'll give my limited perspective.

Software engineering is a field that is both requires breadth and depth at a very high bar for acceptance. From the interviewing side and the many interviews I've been through, it often feels impossible to overcome. The breadth that the field requires leaves gaps in knowledge, where anecdotally I've been asked what's a language I'm an expert in, or to detail the deep particulars of react app development, or to solve X problem with the greatest efficiency with ease and have lots of input on your thought process. I don't mean to paint a picture where you're not allowed to test anyone on anything, but as an average dev, it feels like stabs in the dark compounded with not having a clear path to improving, because everyone's interviews are different. You can improve on the fundamentals, but that only helps so much.

To me, communication and problem solving skills are the biggest factors of what makes a good SWE. I find that most technical interviews don't look for talent that's acceptable, but what's exceptional; not for who's capable, but for who's accomplished.

My firm belief is that many devs who struggle getting a job now, could have walked into any company pre 2010 and gotten a job with the skills they have now.

This is all with the caveat of the knowledge that high salary commands high talent, but my opinion is that the bar is set ridiculously high without regard for how arduous the process is.

I have had a few very fair, but challenging interviews, and I do think that's a step in the right direction.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#174

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:33 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #171

scarface74 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I have never done an algorithm style interview in 25 years of being a developer across 8 jobs, I have softened my stance to it. One of the biggest problems CS grads face is that they can’t break out of the cycle of not having experience and can’t get a job and can’t get a job so they can’t get experience. After the first job it gets easier. You can practice for algorithm type interviews and get a job. It also d…

> One of the biggest problems CS grads face is that they can’t break out of the cycle of not having experience and can’t get a job and can’t get a job so they can’t get experience Serious CS programs often have employment rates really close to 100%. I agree it's the great equalizer.

Is that a typical “All True Scotsman” argument? There are plenty of CS majors struggling to get their first job.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#175

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

blaser-waffle wrote: post #169

scarface74 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people hang out with people who are like them.

"people like them" is relative. Most of my crew are programmers -- but are Chinese, Indian, and German.

Or you know we could look at statistics instead of anecdotes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/25/three...

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#176

Post by dahart » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 2:51 AM UTC

jakkyboi wrote: post #173

dahart wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on why you think it’s atrocious? I’m not sure I agree that the processes are hidden, every company I’ve ever worked for (several large corps you’ve heard of + several startups) talks about hiring practices publicly. Glassdoor and other sites, including HN, have all kinds of information & stories about what happens during interviews.

I'll give my limited perspective. Software engineering is a field that is both requires breadth and depth at a very high bar for acceptance. From the interviewing side and the many interviews I've been through, it often feels impossible to overcome. The breadth that the field requires leaves gaps in knowledge, where anecdotally I've been asked what's a language I'm an expert in, or to detail the deep particulars of r…

Seems totally reasonable, thanks for sharing your perspective. I’d agree that a lot of interviews can range from hard to insane. I’m really curious what that means in terms of measurable outcomes... like how many fresh CS graduates are completely failing to land a job? How many companies are failing to find candidates? Stuff like that...

FWIW, I warn people I’m going to ask questions they don’t know, and I ramp the questions up until people can’t answer them. I know it can be uncomfortable, but I also like finding the bounds of what people know. I do ask a lot of easy questions, and the majority of the interview isn’t knowledge questions at all, it’s open-ended conversation, usually about experience. I don’t have a sense for whether asking a few questions that are too hard for the candidate puts my interviews in the category you’re describing, or whether you’re talking about an entirely different level of arduous.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#177

Post by dahart » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 3:05 AM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #172

dahart wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to back that up with any reasons? Engineers are absolutely not immune to cultural and gender biases, the evidence may be pointing the other way, that we currently have greater than average biases in tech. Isn’t oversight likely to make it better, not worse? While it may be a problem to not be able to ask some kinds of technical questions, like the GP comment alluded to, what is wrong with the idea of trying to l…

Some technical questions are really sink or swim. [0] I've seen interviews get totally derailed by a simple FizzBuzz question. [1] I wonder if the GRE situation doesn't have more to do with selection bias, ie applications with a score lower than a certain threshold aren't considered at all or that folks that aren't convinced of their ability in math & science simply won't apply to graduate school. [0] https://blog.co…

I’d completely agree that asking some technical questions is pretty important, and my experience is that they don’t have to be particularly difficult at all, you can filter a lot of people with very basic questions. I have several first hand stories that match the one you heard about the FizzBuzz question. People who refuse to answer easy technical questions and/or get angry about being asked them are a HUGE red flag. Sometimes you have to do mundane tasks at work, and anyone who thinks they’re above it doesn’t deserve the job. Getting angry about easy questions is short-sighted, I mean they’re easy. It’s a sign the person doesn’t enjoy coding or work.

Anyway, you could be right, but I don’t think the GRE thing is selection bias, I looked this up a while back but I can’t find the study now - I’ll add a link if I can find it. Choices and scores were controlled for, and the takeaway was that people who are good at language truly did perform better in grad school. I think it’s plausible since success in grad school and primary output in grad school is papers & writing & a thesis. The same is true for working at a company, the majority of very successful people aren’t the coders (with some exceptions) but they are more often people who are good at communication, writing, planning, strategizing, and rallying others to work together.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#178

Post by grugagag » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 6:04 AM UTC

mattkrause wrote: post #131

grugagag wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work on a sample project, sample team for 2 weeks. See if you like the work and the company sees if they like you. This would only work if it were a widely accepted standard practice.

In the US, two weeks of vacation is pretty standard so a prospective employee would either have to a) forfeit all of their vacation for the year or b) quit their previous job first and risk having no job at all.

It was a suggestion if it wasn’t broken. The system is currently broken with respect to both employers and employees finding eachother on multiple dimensions not just salary but basically the best possible fit

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#179

Post by dpoochieni » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 7:00 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #175

blaser-waffle wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"people like them" is relative. Most of my crew are programmers -- but are Chinese, Indian, and German.

Or you know we could look at statistics instead of anecdotes. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/25/three...

> There are a number of factors driving these numbers. Simple population counts are one of them: There are more white people than black people in the United States, so it makes sense that the average American is going to have more white friends than black friends.

That's the major factor but I guess if one tries hard enough they can see the angels dancing on the head of a needle. Why would they dismiss it in the 2nd paragraph to come up with some holier-than-thou babble.

Of course, and then one could do some math and figure out that in a graph where 75% of nodes are X and 25% are Y and random relationships occur, the average Y will have a higher proportion of X friends than the average X will have of Y friends. ? Where does one jump from this to some kind of moral argument?

It's like saying the avg kitesurfers has more non-kitesurfer friends than the avg non-kitesurfer has kitesurfer friends.

F*, this grouping and deindividuation of people that the American left has degenerated to, has truly has become a post-modern religion with it's requisite self-flagelation and utopic symbolism.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#180

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 8:26 AM UTC

dpoochieni wrote: post #179

scarface74 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you know we could look at statistics instead of anecdotes. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/25/three...

> There are a number of factors driving these numbers. Simple population counts are one of them: There are more white people than black people in the United States, so it makes sense that the average American is going to have more white friends than black friends. That's the major factor but I guess if one tries hard enough they can see the angels dancing on the head of a needle. Why would they dismiss it in the 2nd…

How did a simple citation turn into a rant about the “liberals”?

This isn’t a novel observation. People live by people that look like them when they are voluntarily choosing who to socialize with, they socialize with people that look like them. I’m not making any value judgments.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Kids-Sitting-Together-Cafeteria...

https://tcf.org/content/report/attacking-black-white-opportu...

But, even if you look beyond racial lines, how many 25 year old singles hang out with 45 year old married people? It even happens in reverse. My former manager was trying to build a department of developers in a remote office. After he got one or two good hires using the standard recruiting process, all the rest came from referrals.

No one in our office of 10 developers were under 35. How much different would the median age have been if he hadn’t used referrals?