Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#171

Post by vladvasiliu » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:06 AM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #126

vladvasiliu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The A380 is as good as retired. Production was scheduled to stop in 2021 since 2019 [0]. It seems to have been advanced by the coronavirus crisis [1]. Air France has stopped flying the A380 [2]. [0] Airbus announces stopping production of A380 in 2021: https://www.capital.fr/entreprises-marches/airbus-annonce-la... [1] Coronavirus gives the final blow to the A380 https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/le-coronavirus-donne…

> The A380 is as good as retired. Doesn't one of the Middle Eastern airlines (Emirates?) have good routes for it, so they can still use it heavily?

It's unclear what the situation for Emirates is. I would guess they're also hit by the drop in air traffic although they might be able to make the routes work with fewer people seeing how they have a lot of luxury offers.

According to the Figaro article, 8 of their 125 planes are still to be delivered. Maybe they could turn a profit by gaining a bigger share on their routes from other companies?

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#172

Post by pirocks » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:11 AM UTC

pininja wrote: post #97

manigandham wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't takeoff/landing cycles on the engines and airframe counteract the fuel savings? EDIT: Specifically pressurization cycles and metal fatigue, since that's how aircraft lifespan is measured.

“[For a 737-400] takeoff, climb, and landing burns approximately one third of the total fuel” [0]. A 747 is a different aircraft, but I’m comfortable assuming this is a directionally correct estimate. Regardless, fuel burn is certainly a factor to consider when looking at savings and there are interesting studies on it (See “Fuel burn implications“ for an idea of factors [1]) [0] http://large.stanford.edu/courses/201…

737's are usually used as short haul planes, while a 747 is typically long haul. You would expect a long haul plane to spend more time in cruise relative to climb, so the fuel consumption numbers could be quite different.

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#173

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:20 AM UTC

nelaboras wrote: post #83

x43b wrote: post #36

>>The Covid-19 pandemic threatens to leave their manufacturers scrounging to find buyers for the last jumbos built. This is imply not true. The last 747s built are freighters. Freight demand is at an all time high due to COVID and constraints on supply chians. Even passenger vehicles are being called into freight service (which is far less efficient yet still economical).

I'd love to see some numbers on this. As far as I understand they are used for freight because it's better than to let them sit empty (and pilots and ground staff have to be paid too), but it still is not profitable.

You can just look at the freight costs which skyrocketed with COVID.

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#174

Post by megablast » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:20 AM UTC

nlh wrote: post #101

One thing that stands out in TFA is the photo of the cabin mock-up: https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ijEVXdL5LsC... What's the biggest difference? No overhead bins! It looks positively roomy in there. I wonder if the overhead bin model is really the best one -- it feels like a huge bottleneck. Reduces headspace, slows down load in and load out dramatically since it essentially requires that every pass…

People sit on their seats. What the point if removing that storage so something seems roomier?

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#175

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:22 AM UTC

smohnot wrote: post #55

Sad day for me; for a plane geek, frequent traveler, son of immigrants, and someone who has been to the factory (incredible - visit the Everett Boeing facility if you get a chance), this is super nostalgic. The "Queen of the skies" really changed air travel, and I'm a bit sad that they won't be flying much longer. The economics, size and scale of travel were drastically different before the 747. Before the 747, only…

> Before the 747, only the richest folks could really cross the globe at will. The 747 changed everyday notions of distance and ushered in the age of travel that we get to enjoy today.

Not just that though. Regulation also changed significantly in the meantime and made it possible for smaller aircrafts to fly intercontinental which brought prices down as well.

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#176

Post by HanShotFirst » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

mjg59 wrote: post #143

steffan wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might feel that way, but that isn't correct. Over the years, the airlines _have_ reduced seat pitch, and as you can see from the 747 illustration, added an additional seat in the middle section as well.

The layout in the picture seems to be 3-4-3, which pretty typical for 747s - I don't think anyone does 3-5-3.

I recently (a few years ago) flew transatlantic on a 3-5-3 747 (Delta).

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#177

Post by hodgesrm » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:34 AM UTC

perryizgr8 wrote: post #166

Another sign of mankind's technological regression when it comes to flight. First we lost the supersonic airliner, now jumbo jets.

Uh, the smaller planes are quite pleasant to fly on. Better cabin pressurization and larger windows. They also allow more long-haul routes.

Besides a 777 is not that much smaller than a 747.

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#178

Post by hodgesrm » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:41 AM UTC

Tiltowait-- wrote: post #26

sesuximo wrote: post #23

It’s a little sad that we’ve retired the 747, the Concorde, and (almost) the A380. And we haven’t introduced anything cool :(

The Concorde was done in by fuel prices, and because it was a small aircraft. I visited one in a museum and it was claustrophobic. Also nobody should be sorry that elites have to sit on long overseas flights just like we do. The A380 was a boondoggle from the beginning, an attempt to outdo Boeing by having TEH BIGGEREST aircraft on the market. Having to rebuild airports to accommodate it wasn't a good idea. The 747 i…

> The 747 is a 1960s design, for Pete's sake. How long were we planning on keeping it around?

Sometimes old designs are pretty good. The C-130 Hercules rolled out in 1956. It's still in service in the US and other air forces. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_C-130_Hercules

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#179

Post by Waterluvian » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:42 AM UTC

perspectivezoom wrote: post #122

gsnedders wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A _large_ proportion of worldwide freight is ordinarily carried in the belly of passenger aircraft. When most airlines stopped flying, the price of air freight _quickly_ rose (as the capacity pretty much fell overnight to just the dedicated freighter aircraft). This meant it became profitable (i.e., above the marginal costs of the flights) to fly passenger aircraft purely for the belly-hold freight. They certainly ar…

I just watched a video about this, that basically goes over all your points: "Air Cargo's Coronavirus Problem" by Wendover Productions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2oPk20OHBE A summary of the video: - Passenger flight belly cargo used to be responsible for 25% of air cargo capacity, so capacity is severely reduced. - PPE emergency logistics has caused a huge spike in demand, since PPE allocations are currently to…

Tangent: are there a ton of pilots struggling to remain qualified and well practiced given all the flights not flying?

Re: Boeing quietly pulls plug on the 747, closing era of jumbo jets

#180

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M » Fri, Jul 03, 2020, 5:50 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #179

perspectivezoom wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just watched a video about this, that basically goes over all your points: "Air Cargo's Coronavirus Problem" by Wendover Productions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2oPk20OHBE A summary of the video: - Passenger flight belly cargo used to be responsible for 25% of air cargo capacity, so capacity is severely reduced. - PPE emergency logistics has caused a huge spike in demand, since PPE allocations are currently to…

Tangent: are there a ton of pilots struggling to remain qualified and well practiced given all the flights not flying?

From what I understand, most airlines are rotating the few remaining shifts. This way each pilot gets a couple of flights per month, which is enough to keep their ratings.

That said, since many airlines have completely stopped flying some plane types (particulary the A380 superjumbo), those pilots are going to have a problem soon.