Mental Wealth • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental Wealth

#171

Post by bonoboTP » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #33

I find articles like this one where 100% of the onus for coping with mental health problems is put on the individual quite annoying. There's nothing in the article about getting help from other people, or how to cope with problems that you can't fix easily. It's kind of a toxic attitude because it makes others believe people with mental health issues just aren't trying hard enough and completely ignores individual ci…

Both can be true at the same time. This is totally analogous to the extremely flammable topic of whether telling your daughter not to go to dark alleys at night in skimpy clothing reinforces the victim blaming narrative or is just rational advice for the harshness of real life. Or "don't teach web designers how to write standards compliant HTML, because then next-gen browsers will be less lenient and then other people's websites will be broken".

The thing is, there are testimonies of tons of people online who fixed so much about their life, based on tips like this. I'm very much against this attitude of "let's keep good advice secret, so we don't look too judgmental". This is what leads to things like "health at every size" and "fat acceptance". That you can no longer spread advice on how you can massively improve your well-being and life expectancy by losing weight, because this is somehow too judgmental towards people with conditions that make weight loss unusually hard.

Second order effects are important, sure, and there can be counterintuitive consequences and other weird smart stuff. But first and foremost, there are tons of stuff that people can do right now to improve their lives. I am really greatful for the existence of articles like this, because this stuff helped me and if it was for you, we'd only have articles that make us all resentful, bitter and give up trying.

And OF COURSE the system needs to change, especially in the US. How they treat mental illness by policing, the whole consumerist propaganda, the stress inducing, hyperoptimized apps, the hyperpalatable foods that are engineered to trick us to eat more and get fat etc. etc. they all need to be addressed. We cannot expect people on a massive scale to suddenly be able to counteract these immense forces raining down on them all day every day from all channels, billboards, ads etc. guiding them towards a harmful life.

In summary

1) When giving advice to an individual it's about how to thrive in a cold hard world that doesn't care a bit about whether they are happy or suffer or live or die. What you can do, you should because ultimately you have different paths forward and working step by step, little by little, while not beating up yourself in the process can be immensely helpful. Not because you will get praise or because you obeyed the commands of the white coats, but because you will genuinely be better for your own sake.

2) When talking to people who have their shit together, advocate for compassion towards those who are in a messy situation. But really helping is hard. Teaching to fish vs giving fish etc. Just because someone has a messed up life with mental health issues doesn't make them into angels, that would be some variant of "noble savage". It can be difficult to help, you may be used, you may be tricked, and progress is not guaranteed.

Think of it as an analogue of the Liskov Substitution Principle. Prepare the person to be strong in a harsh environment and simultaneously work on making the environment less harsh so that less strong people can also thrive.

Re: Mental Wealth

#172

Post by bonoboTP » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

CaptArmchair wrote: post #66

austincheney wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the article right at the beginning asks the reader not to equivocate mental health with mental illness and heath, or rather wholistic well-being, is actually almost entirely the proactive responsibility of the individual. The basic starting point is fitness which applies to mental health conditioning just as it does to physical exercise. To be fair to your point though the article does say we should shift ou…

I'm always wary of anyone leveraging concepts such as "investing in mental wealth" or "focussing on self improvement" in order to pander 5 bullet methodologies. Even more so when the author interjects a plug, both shameless as well as irrelevant, for their own book - Beyond Coffee - in their argument. The fallacy hidden in the article is that each of us is completely in control over our physical and mental well-being…

> The idea of controlling your life and the optimistic view that one is able to mould it towards an ideal stems in Modernistic tradition.

Okay, that's your view. I've taken control in the areas listed, I pay attention to what I'm doing, I'm journaling, noticing what improves my well-being and it's been a great journey that is helping me with my depression tendencies. I am proud to feel that I now have control to go to sleep over Youtube rabbit holes till the sun comes up, etc. etc. I am moulding myself and it's largely thanks to helpful material that doesn't just say you are good as you are, keep being a slob who never exercises, procrastinates eternally, etc. Keeping my wakeup time constant and going running first thing in the morning has helped me a ton. The exercise and the regular wake up makes me sleepy in the evening, I don't need coffee in the morning etc. Things do work.

> Human minds are doing poorly at self diagnosing, while it's very hard for others to spot the signs of mental health issues. Mental health is also deeply woven into the identity and the personality of individuals. Personal struggles are very much part of being an individual.

I don't want my struggles with my sleep schedule to be part of being an individual. Nor do I want my gaming addiction to define myself. Nor my anxieties.

You don't realize that this attitude of "anything goes", "you are okay", "no lifestyle can be ever better than any other" can give people the idea that there is nothing for them to do. That things will necessarily stay the same until some big social revolution comes sometime in a few... decades?

People can take action here and now however small. The feeling of a bit of control and agency can do wonders and can snowball into great things.

Re: Mental Wealth

#173

Post by scollet » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:02 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #5

glutamate wrote: post #2

I really don't think the best way of building up mental health reserves is to approach this thinking like an entrepreneur or an investor. To be honest that sounds like the broken record that is the Silicon Valley or general capitalism BS machine. Instead, I would advocate participating in communities, working for social and environmental justice, volunteering and acting in a spirit of generosity that is directed away…

>working for social and environmental justice In my experience focusing on political causes of any kind is not a great path to happiness, as it almost inevitably results in anger, frustration or sadness at the state of the world.

> anger, frustration or sadness

Neglecting and suppressing emotions definitely doesn't improve mental health. The belief that everything must be happy and bring pleasure is delusional and hurtful.

Re: Mental Wealth

#174

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

zdw wrote: post #96

cousin_it wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the book he describes the ways modern life has disconnected us from a lot of what humans find meaningful, and given that it's not surprising that rates of depression and anxiety have skyrocketed. Yeah. See Yvain's excellent review of "Empire of the Summer Moon": All of the white people who joined Indian tribes loved it and refused to go back to white civilization. All the Indians who joined white civilization ha…

Having an abundance of natural resources that are easily accessible at a low tech level seems like it's a very large precondition to making this work. Sounds like someone drank the "Noble savage" koolaid in writing that.

[deleted]

Re: Mental Wealth

#175

Post by eropple » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

christiansakai wrote: post #149

wsinks wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain more about keeping your public identity small but your private identity large? Does that just mean not trying to do your own personal branding so people can find you on the internet? Or is it more about "everyone that I care about, aka local people, should know about me - that's my private identity". I'm curious, as an American born and someone who's continually trying to learn about other cultures.

If this is about personal branding related to your business, yes you can keep your public identity large, but strictly only about that. Let's say you are a musician, then yeah just promote yourself as a musician, music you write, instruments that you play, but stop there. Don't tell people anything about your private life, your politics, your religion, etc. Not to say that people shouldn't do that per se, but this co…

This reads as "erase the parts of yourself that might make the mainstream uncomfortable." What you're writing seems very much to distill down to not discomfiting a default-white, default-male, default-affluent worldview, because it might make you feel bad when people get mad at you for existing.

Care to refine your position?

Re: Mental Wealth

#176

Post by bonoboTP » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

alltakendamned wrote: post #26

logicchains wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's harder advice to give. Trying to wake up at the same time every day and not drink coffee before bed is, at least in theory, something anybody could do without too much difficulty. Going out and making more friends, getting more involved in the community, is a scarier idea to propose, especially if somebody already has some kind of social anxiety.

I agree it's not as easy as drinking a cup of coffee, but does it have to be easy or does it have to be effective ? Mental health is too important to leave it up to quick fixes. While social anxiety seems to be definitely more prevalent these days, I am wondering if this might be something that actually increases due to the precise lack of sufficient positive community experiences. Meeting new people has always been…

> But let's also turn it around and follow the advice, you sleep well, eat healthy, do your round in the gym, meditate and drink your coffee every day. Well, you're still going to feel pretty sad and lonely if the rest of the time you're locked up in your room reading Reddit.

By doing these things you legitimately improve your physical and mental faculties. Of course it's a cycle that feeds back to itself: socializing and having friends will give you motivation to keep up your habits and so on.

Sometimes the first step is fixing the basics so that you have the energy and mood to go out and explore the world and to make people want to befriend you. You have to break the cycle somewhere and it has to be where you are in control, not where other people are in control.

Re: Mental Wealth

#177

Post by bonoboTP » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:12 PM UTC

glaberficken wrote: post #13

I think the author is mistaking cause with effect. When the things mentioned (Sleep, Diet, Exercise, Stress Management, Exogenous Compounds) go out of balance, that "unbalancing" may well be a symptom (consequence) of the mental issue and not the cause as is implied in the article. You can invest all you want decades in advance in creating balanced habits in those areas and still be disrupted down the line with negat…

It's a positive feedback loop. The causation is not one-directional.

Re: Mental Wealth

#178

Post by mightybyte » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

wsinks wrote: post #145

christiansakai wrote: post #142

For myself. This is what I've been doing and working for me. From the outside, generally, stay away or just observe from far away: - People who post political/religious/racial comments every 5 mins or so on social media, whether their view aligns with yours or not - People who are too passionate about one thing - People who don't keep their identity small in public, be it digital or real life - People who have black…

Can you explain more about keeping your public identity small but your private identity large? Does that just mean not trying to do your own personal branding so people can find you on the internet? Or is it more about "everyone that I care about, aka local people, should know about me - that's my private identity". I'm curious, as an American born and someone who's continually trying to learn about other cultures.

When I read that, I immediately thought of this article from earlier this year by Tim Ferriss.

https://tim.blog/2020/02/02/reasons-to-not-become-famous/

Having a large and visible private identity has a cost, and I think that post does a great job at illustrating it.

Re: Mental Wealth

#179

Post by austincheney » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:18 PM UTC

karatestomp wrote: post #162

austincheney wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been there I can honestly tell you it isn’t the same. The conditions are very different. No matter how bad things get in the US there is still a very large gap between US conditions and those that would drive people to self-immolation.

Relative deprivation will do the trick. Double the prices of essential goods in the US overnight, and watch how fast a revolt forms, and what violence it will resort to if it meets resistance. Nevermind that everyone here'd still be very well-off by global standards—they'll hang the politician who doesn't give in to their demands, anyway.

Sure, and if a meteor crushes the capitol while Yellowstone violently explodes in apocalyptic volcanic doom all while running out of toilet paper again due to Covid I suspect people will be upset. I don’t envision the hanging of any politicians though.

Re: Mental Wealth

#180

Post by austincheney » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 7:22 PM UTC

bergstromm466 wrote: post #73

austincheney wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politicians think that riots are the problem and if they stop the riots with force the problem goes away. But riots are just a symptom of a sick system. No the system and other systemic or social problems are just a excuse. Riots, at least those in recent events are an example of contagious social behavior. That is evidenced by the fact that the blamed issues have been known problems for longer than two weeks with…

> emotional hysteria Sensitive people like you make me sad. [from your own bio] To me labelling people who collectively rise up against systemic domination as 'emotional hysteria' is just the epitome of cruelty. #blacklivesmatter

Here is the definition: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria

I am not sure why that word comes across as offensive given that people were rioting. I can’t think of any better example of a sudden burst of excess emotion.