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Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

blog.cerebralab.com

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Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the opportunities for your children growing up in a developed country with an above average income vs. staying back home. It's the same networking effects you would benefit from by moving, but multiplied since they get them from the start.

Germany isn't developed?

I'm talking about the more extreme cases like India and US, but if you want to take it there I'd say compared to the US the opportunities for you and your children will be better when you're in the top income bracket.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#172
imho american programmers are in for a world of hurt. Day of reckoning is coming. Its just not today. So if you say its today, you naturally get the derision and downvotes. But that doesn’t mean there is no such day.

Just 2-3 days ago we sent 2 chaps into space. 50 years ago with far more primitive software we sent them to the moon. And you are bitching about how your software profession is so fragile it’ll be messed up because of culture, because of time zones, because of skillset, because people “over there” don’t look like you think like you talk like you walk like you. How long can you put up with this farce ? For a long time, thats for sure. But not for ever.

This stuff aint particularly hard, people. Yes not everyone can do it. And yet, its also true that wasting the best years of your life trying to design a 10mb facebook page isn’t perhaps the best use of your brain cells. Perhaps if you are truly that smart, why not work on something more worthwhile ? Go solve cancer or robotics or self driving or....not this agile webcrap for christs sake. Is this truly what you want to stake your future on , that someone in a different part of the planet can’t write javascript as good as the L5 sitting in Menlo Park ? It doesn’t even sound good on paper. Next you’ll tell me you believe in the tooth fairy.Jesus.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#173

Do the author really believe programmers earn only 12-16k USD yearly in Poland?

Good point. In Eastern Europe a decent programmer earns 35-45K after tax. I know it because I work with developers from Eastern Europe. 12-16K is more a fresh grad level, really junior.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#174
post #172

imho american programmers are in for a world of hurt. Day of reckoning is coming. Its just not today. So if you say its today, you naturally get the derision and downvotes. But that doesn’t mean there is no such day. Just 2-3 days ago we sent 2 chaps into space. 50 years ago with far more primitive software we sent them to the moon. And you are bitching about how your software profession is so fragile it’ll be messed…

You'll be downvoted, but there is some refreshing truth in your statements.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#175
post #91
post #68

I've worked with outsourced programmers before. Most of them are talented and a joy to work with. However, giving them work is often a form of programming... they will do exactly what you tell them to do, no more and no less. For example, unless you describe the tests you want them to write, they may not write tests. If they see a possible refactor or optimization, they won't volunteer to do it. One of the frequent s…

Tbf, often contractor developers have tried to do the right thing (e.g. write tests) and been bitten ("I didn't pay for a test suite!"). Individual initiative in the contracting world usually goes unrewarded and is often punished, so you quickly learn to do what you are told, no more, no less. And you have gone the extra mile for deadbeat clients that have left you hanging with unpaid invoices, so why bother wasting…

Boy, if I had a quarter for everytime I've encountered a contractor or offshore team that did something "I didn't pay for" .... I'd be broke because I wouldn't have any quarters! I see you point in theory but in practice, that just does not happen or if it does, it is very rare.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#176
This article is badly informed and badly reasoned.

Adam Smith - An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations

” It is not, accordingly, in the richest countries, but in the most thriving, or in those which are growing rich the fastest, that the wages of labour are highest.”

In those places, you are willing to pay the most since it will make you the most.

Brooke’s Law

Wikipedia “ Communication overhead increases as the number of people increases. Due to combinatorial explosion, the number of different communication channels increases rapidly with the number of people.[3] Everyone working on the same task needs to keep in sync, so as more people are added they spend more time trying to find out what everyone else is doing.”

You want to cluster people together since distributing people creates communications overhead.

Adam Smith also explains why innovation tends to cluster. It is because communication lets learning and innovation occur more rapidly.

Lastly, labor moves to where there are the highest wages.

You saw all this the last 10 years. Facebook willing to pay top dollar. Companies growing their offices bigger and bigger. People moving to Silicon Valley for the money. Silicon Valley companies copying best practices in the blink of an eye.

It also explains why Zoom has such good margins. Their engineering wasn’t distributed. It was in China. Labor arbitrage but with a minimization of communications overhead.

Companies don’t attack all markets at once. They attack them one at a time (usually local market first).

It is in fact in an efficient market that you have disparities in wages.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, hold on. Won't this be easily mitigated by a native programmer tech lead working overseas? Say I was born in X (low income) and raised there, and then move to Y (high income) and work there as a programmer for several years, then it should be easy for me to hire programmers from X and be the bridge to management at Y?

And that is a very common business model in Europe

I see. That's what I thought.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another aspect of culture: how one-sided the communication is. Silicon Valley and Scandinavian cultures are very flat, so it is possible for "the man on the floor" to tell management that it doesn't work to put diesel into a gasoline car. In authoritarian cultures this would be a mistake as it's seen as embarrassing the management by saying they made a mistake. If you want to continue being employed then it is much b…

Business culture in the US is also quite authoritarian. There have been decades of strategic peeling away of labor rights to put labor in a more leveraged situation, leading to restricted freedoms. Sure, you can tell your manager/director/CIO/CTO their choice is idiotic but the fact is, you'll be fired instantly and depending on circumstances, you may be in a bad situation financially and future career wise. The very…

>If your manager wants to put diesel in a gasoline car, you often have to agree

If you are using this as a metaphor for a decision you personally consider stupid, then maybe.

If it's actually putting diesel in a gas car, then no, I can't imagine any case in which an intern couldn't safely tell that to their director or CEO.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#179
post #13

It seems to be missing a very big factor: culture. If your goal is to implement some code for, say, healthcare, it is a lot easier to explain the business process to someone who is already familiar with how stuff is done on a higher level. Whenever you hire someone from a different culture / country, you need to start from the basics by explaining the very core of your society. An American programmer might not be too…

Another aspect of culture: how one-sided the communication is. Silicon Valley and Scandinavian cultures are very flat, so it is possible for "the man on the floor" to tell management that it doesn't work to put diesel into a gasoline car. In authoritarian cultures this would be a mistake as it's seen as embarrassing the management by saying they made a mistake. If you want to continue being employed then it is much b…

Having worked in both of the locations you mentioned I can say that Scandinavian culture is much less dogmatic than the American engineering culture.

Scandinavians communicate more directly. At the moment of giving feedback, Americans lack initiative, communicate vaguely and avoid confrontations.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#180
It is difficult to align worker-incentives in large off-shore contractors with the client's needs.

Someone mentioned that contractors don't write tests unless you explicitly tell them which ones to write. Well, even if they did, are you going to be able to promote them? That dev's manager is probably hyper-focused on spec completion and billable hours. Even if you paid more for test coverage you start paying for things like assert sum(1,1) == 2.

High quality code often comes from people coding for "the job they want" not the job they currently have. In-house work usually has this carrot of a senior role that can be attained by taking initiative and thinking outside the spec for the missing pieces. This is a form of compensation and incentive missing in low end contracting work.

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