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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#171

Post by systemvoltage »

hysan wrote: post #165
systemvoltage wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public inte…

One reason for this is because once elected, there is very little that the population can do to hold the official accountable. You can’t remove officials for not fulfilling their promises. They can also delay until it’s too late by saying, “I’m working on it.” Then once out of office, they are accountable for nothing. Job safety is built into the position for good reason. However, it’s been perverted to allow officia…

I am curious, what would such a system look like?

I am thinking that a "promise" is not a quantitative term. It needs to be ratified into specific data oriented actions that can go through a litmus test whether it was fulfilled or betrayed.

After that, one idea is to have an accountability score tracked by bureaucracy and have that printed on the ballot along with their principle accomplishments in the supplement. Another idea is to have a penalty score of not meeting prior promises as a dilution factor to the number of votes. If a politician only met 90% of the promises, they will lose 10% of the voting power of the public (like a 0.X multiplier to the votes). Just thinking out loud, there may be major issues with these ideas.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#172

Post by hysan »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

Do not condone violence. But much like dealing with students who break the rules, your first reaction should not be to punish. Your first reaction should be to ask why.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#173

Post by testbot123 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #150
Avicebron wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the french revolution, the american revolution, and the civil war could be argued to be violent protests for reform that did some good. I think slow erosion of rights and safety nets through quiet periods of apathy does more harm to more people, and becomes harder to reverse in the long run.

Can we not make comparisons between revolutions against oppressive monarchies for the right to representation and opportunistic looting and rioting? People's homes and livelihoods are literally going up in smoke and these riots aren't even over yet--can we hold off on the vague defenses of political violence?

"Political violence" is when police murder unarmed American citizens without due process.

Property damage is not violence.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#174

Post by appleflaxen »

devalgo wrote: post #59
mmastrac wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

>The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard". Trotted out by ignorant woke dummies. In his 1967 Stanford speech MLK also says: "Let me say as I've always said and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and…

the post you're replying too doesn't imply he advocated riots; if the quote is accurate (I'm no historian) it's simply attributing causality.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#175

Post by zo1 »

vkou wrote: post #104
solotronics wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police are people too and when you escalate to violence and destruction you might get answered with force. Making this an us vs them and not having any proper form of discourse between the parties is causing the explosive reactions on both sides.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/gu3qq1/cop_just_ca... Do any of the people who got gassed in this video look like they are committing violence or destruction? The cop who tossed the gas grenade is certainly committing violence, but that's about all I can see. > I'm not a tough person, I'm not an aggressive person, I'm not a violent person. I was just standing there quietly alongside other peaceful protestor…

It's the same thing as the whole "resisting arrest" paradox I've observed. People have base instincts (and I guess crowds/large-area population groups by some extension) that they just can't override. E.g. it's very difficult to lie still and be flaccid when you're being pinned, possible hit, have your hands twisted, put in a claustrophobic situation, etc to not try "fight back". Especially now when everyone just assumes that if you submit to police in such a situation that you will be choked out on hot asphalt and may never wake up.

It has already escalated for one reason or another, and it's hard for violence to de-escalate as it feeds each side until one decides to be "the loser". Only then can it subside or de-escalate. Right now, the police can't leave things be as they are in some places watching protests turn violent. Personally, I would hold them accountable if they didn't try to stop violent protestors and to disperse large crowds that start getting unruly or have the potential to. And that says nothing of the message or the grievances that the protestors may have.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#176

Post by freeone3000 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #112
freeone3000 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the last way the people have for their voice to be heard. All laws come from the people governed; legislatures serve at their behest and for their interests. If you have SO MANY people decrying an action -- it's direct democracy in real time.

Voting? Anyway, there's pretty broad agreement that the riots are opportunistic violence, not connected to or motivated by a concern for justice.

Voting hasn't worked. Oakland PD still has half of its budget to brutality complaints. It's been 7 years since the movement started and 66 years since voting was allowed for Black people. Voting isn't going to change anything.

"Broad agreement" by who, exactly? I keep seeing videos of cops smashing windows then blaming it on protestors, cops attacking crowds with tear gas and less-lethal rounds, and now a shooting of a small business owner at a barbecue. It's not connected to a concern for justice because you're looking at the wrong side to blame.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#177

Post by SamuelAdams »

runawaybottle wrote: post #92

What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.

Harsher penalties for excessive use of force would be a good start.

The problem right now is that excessive use of force by an LEO rarely results in actual, hard time or fines for that officer. Consider the death of Eric Garner [1]. The city of New York paid 5.9 million to his family and the arresting officer was fired from the NYPD. Additionally, the Department of Justice declined to bring criminal charges against [the arresting officer] under federal civil rights laws.

If we reorganized our justice system to actually pursue officers who use excessive use of force, perhaps officers would be more careful about using it. But the current state of affairs has no penalties for the officers if they do use excessive use of force when it is not justified.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#178

Post by devalgo »

appleflaxen wrote: post #174
devalgo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The MLK quote is trotted out pretty often, but "a riot is the language of the unheard". Trotted out by ignorant woke dummies. In his 1967 Stanford speech MLK also says: "Let me say as I've always said and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and…

the post you're replying too doesn't imply he advocated riots; if the quote is accurate (I'm no historian) it's simply attributing causality.

I'm explicitly talking about the people who are using the MLK quote to DEFEND the riots not explain them. If they actually supported the thesis of what MLK was saying they would post the entire quote with the relevant condemnation of riots, some are doing that but many aren't.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#179

Post by devalgo »

teachrdan wrote: post #114
devalgo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The officer in question has been charged with murder. The Minnesota Governor and AG were both advocating for charges basically since day 1 and well before the protests so it's not at all clear the turmoil influenced his arrest.

To the contrary, the prosecutor had this to say about why he had not pressed charges: 'But my job in the end is to prove he violated a criminal statute - but there is other evidence that does not support a criminal charge.'[0] This quotation is from a tabloid, but the quote--and the DA's failure to say unequivocally that he would prosecute Floyd's killer, Chauvin--contributed to the riots. And then Chauvin was arrest…

Attorney General != District Attorney last time I checked.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#180

Post by Balgair »

softwaredoug wrote: post #38

If you haven’t learned about the US Civil War and Reconstruction, it’s required context for everything around this topic. I’d particularly recommend the recent Chernow biography on Grant and the Blight biography on Frederick Douglass. The civil war & reconstruction are the single most defining events in US history. They’re extremely relevant to today’s politics, racial justice, and identity based partisanship. In sho…

Grant is a very dense, but very good book.

The period after Lincoln's death until Grant's election is nearly unbelievable. Johnson was an avowed racist and openly apologistic to southern gentry. The south and a sizable percent of the population was under armed guard and were essentially in military dictatorship under Grant. Grant was the obvious next pick for president and, wisely, was quiet about being the 'real' power in the US, physically right next to Johnson.

Then, as Johnson can't help himself but to be a bullheaded moron, he gets impeached by the radical left wing of the house: the 'newish' Republican party. His trial is wild, by the way. He gets impeached, and is then sent to the senate. Where the southern states, still under the war department, can't vote or sit; it's all Union states. Bribing was rampant in the senate, but not publicly known. Johnson misses conviction by one vote. The left-wing Republican senators that vote to acquit never serve in public office again.

Again, Grant is a dense read, but Chernow did a fantastic job on it. Big recommend

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Andrew_Johnson

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