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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#171

Post by PureParadigm »

catalogia wrote: post #82
cameldrv wrote: post #56

This is very unfortunate. Yes, you can improve your SAT score by studying somewhat, but not massively. The College board has made a free online prep course with Kahn academy that achieves similar results to professional coaching if the student puts in the time. The fact that a student is willing to put in that time should be an indicator that they're likely to be successful in college. Where more of the abuse is is i…

I'm not convinced more time on tests will actually help somebody who doesn't legitimately have some relevant disability. Generally tests are structured so that if you know the material, you'll have plenty of time to spare. But if you don't know the material, it's unlikely you'll figure it out even if you're given twice as much time on the exam. It's not like they'll spend that extra hour teaching themselves the trigo…

I've taken exams in college where the professors intentionally put more questions on the exam than you have time for. They say, "think of each question as an opportunity to increase your score" as opposed to caring about answering them all. The score is then standardized at the end, since most results are below 50% correct. It turns out exams like this usually give a very normally shaped distribution. More time is a massive advantage in these cases.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#172

Post by albntomat0 »

null0pointer wrote: post #163
buttholes wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have embarrassing personal experience here. I don't have a learning disability, but I'm a pretty slow reader. I cheated on a section of the SAT by finishing another section with lighter reading and going back to the unfinished one.

I'm not familiar with the SAT, so I might be misunderstanding. But how is returning to an earlier section of the paper after you've completed a later section considered cheating? In all the exams I took over high school/university we could complete the paper in any order we like.

The SAT is divided into sections, with a time limit for each one. If I recall correctly, each one is 10 - 30 minutes, with multiple sections making up reading, writing and math.

The test is also designed with time pressure in mind.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#174

Post by ikeyany »

AaronFriel wrote: post #137

Such a move would mean I would never have been admitted to university, and I don't think I'm alone. I graduated third from the bottom of my class from High School and had enormous difficulties with a school system that was adversarial to me throughout my childhood. In my public elementary school my principal deceived state officials to try to put me into special ed. She was admonished after it was revealed she hid my…

> In my public elementary school my principal deceived state officials to try to put me into special ed. She was admonished after it was revealed she hid my Iowa standardized test scores from state officials.

I think a student talking about that during the application process would actually be considered for admission.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#175

Post by gnulinux »

null0pointer wrote: post #163
buttholes wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have embarrassing personal experience here. I don't have a learning disability, but I'm a pretty slow reader. I cheated on a section of the SAT by finishing another section with lighter reading and going back to the unfinished one.

I'm not familiar with the SAT, so I might be misunderstanding. But how is returning to an earlier section of the paper after you've completed a later section considered cheating? In all the exams I took over high school/university we could complete the paper in any order we like.

In SAT you're not allowed do this. Each section has fixed time, then pencils down.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#176

Post by caseysoftware »

TuringNYC wrote: post #110
hpoe wrote: post #3

I know some people protest measures that are considered more "objective" over measures that are more "holistic", whether this is in school admittance, performance evaluation, promotion consideration, interviewing, determining welfare benefits, choosing who makes the rules and governs. However it has been my experience that whenever an explicit test or hierarchy is removed another shadow one builds up that is more sub…

"Holistic" often ends up meaning "I'll make up the rules, and you dont get to know what the rules are" I'd rather take my chances on an unfair system with open rules than on an unfair system with opaque rules. Edit: spelling

> I'd rather take my changes on an unfair system with open rules than on an unfair system with opaque rules.

I think this is a perfect summary. No system is perfect but at least the flaws are consistent and well-known, not subject to the whims of a particular group on a particular day.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#177

Post by nerfhammer »

zajio1am wrote: post #145
awillen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree with this 100% - these students are going to be compared to each other somehow, and it's always going to be imperfect and favor those who are better off. Still, these tests are at least relatively objective, and if you remove them the kids will be compared with less objective measures that allow for more bias to be introduced. The SAT/ACT are the worst form of college admission criteria very much in the…

Here the common strategy for STEM degree programmes is to admit most people and then make first year hard enough that e.g. 2/3 of students are eliminated. In some sense it is more fair than strict admission criteria.

rather than accepting them for an entire year and then kicking 2/3rds of them out, why not don't kick them out and just teach three times as many students. feels more humane somehow

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#178

Post by ikeyany »

corrupt_measure wrote: post #22

>Admissions tests, allegedly biased against minority students, will be phased out over five years Why are we lumping minorities into one group when we know that many minority groups score better than average on standardized tests than the general population. Asian Americans, Nigerian Americans, Jewish people, etc all do very well. In a world where the wealthy have ever more advantages in college admissions, standardi…

A lot of people mean "underrepresented and underprivileged people", which has a less racial implication than "minority".

In that case, regardless of race, they would look at your parents' income, or the kind of school you went to and the district it was in.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#179

Post by LanceH »

zamfi wrote: post #117
applecrazy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is likely a way to reduce asian american attendance at the top UC schools This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the Times article about this yesterday. I also applied to college last year, so I have a pretty recent knowledge of the process. I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutel…

> I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutely false. No one is claiming it's "impossible", and I don't want to minimize your experience -- 20 years ago, I also scored 99th percentile on the SAT with only $15 spent on practice books -- but it's absolutely not the norm. The reality is that a SAT score…

What criteria that you will use for admission won't correlate with wealth?

Grades? Ability to complete college successfully?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#180

Post by Gibbon1 »

bananabreakfast wrote: post #109
Shoue wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland, often touted as the best in education, does not use SAT. The same can be said for many other European countries with excellent education. Are you implying there is no correlation? Have you looked at their systems before making a claim such as "haven't come up with anything better"?

European entrance exams, including Finland's, are far, far worse than the SAT. They are much more serious and shape one's life far more and enforce systemic bias to much higher extreme.

I don't have direct experience but I think the whole system in Europe is designed to irrevocably pigeon hole students very early in the game.

If I remember California State Colleges have a bunch of placement tests to gauge what level of classes to put beginning students in. I think I'd be happier with a system that throws a net wide and than deals with the result on an as needed basis. Than a hyper meritocratic system that excludes large segments of society.

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