TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions • Hacker News Board

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#171

Post by Udik » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #117

cesarb wrote: post #115

Suppose the actors were different: wouldn't this be like, for instance, Germany forbidding a Brazilian company from exporting a widget it manufactured to the USA, just because the Brazilian company had used a German-made lathe in its Brazilian factory to make the widget?

I don't think you can talk about this in terms of just rules. What is happening here is one world superpower is using all the leverage it can to attack another world power. Germany isn't going to do this firstly because it doesn't have the leverage and secondly because they're not interested in playing that sort of raw power politics. This is how cold wars are conducted, the belligerents pour resources into strategic…

> forcing China into compliance with US demands.

Except that, as it's clear from the rest of your comment (with which I agree fully) there are no real demands from the US to China except a demand for subalternity. In other words, the only reason behind this moralising and chest-beating is simply that the US wants to keep its power by obstructing a competitor.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#172

Post by LatteLazy » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #164

LatteLazy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're wrong but... Good luck convincing the average consumer (voter) to do without for a while and then pay more after that. They'll lynch you if they can't get the latest iTurd for 499.99 plus tax. Also, as long as the CCP run China, they'll be stronger than the west (consumerism and short-termism and Chinese abuses of them aren't just US issues). We need them to democratise, consumer domestically and…

Perhaps we should get a hanfle on short-termist and consumerism before they doom us, with or without China

I'd like that. I actually think Chinas rise is one of the things that will make us do that. Similarly, some environmental catastropy might. Not sure how else it will happen.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#173

Post by mlindner » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

addicted wrote: post #94

dannyw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if you do business in China and recognise Taiwan, you will be shown the door and/or your. business will be literally stolen, so... it's not really different. It's about time we start making China accountable. It's about time we start blocking Tencent and Alibaba from further American acquisition or investment. It's about time we restrict and throttle CCP-controlled media platforms like Tiktok; the same way Ch…

The problem with your argument is that for the vast majority of the world the US, and American companies, have spied far more on their communications, and manipulated far more do their politics than anything China has done. So if those are the calculations the US starts forcing countries to make, the most likely impact will be on American companies before anyone touches the Chinese (largely also because it’s American…

Except the US doesn't enforce US companies to delete and censor specific content in other countries. China's human values are restrictive, US human values are highly tolerant.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#174

Post by sudosysgen » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

ngcc_hk wrote: post #64

FooBarWidget wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place? Also, there is all this talk about "forced" tech transfers, but nobody forced US co…

You cannot sell certain service to china. That is not fair.

Canada tried selling planes to the US, we got hit by 200% tariffs.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#175

Post by sudosysgen » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

summerlight wrote: post #62

marticode wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is saying that Google could have kept operating in China if they had agreed to follow local (but Orwellian) regulations.

No, Google pulled its business from China because of massive state-level hacking attempts, not because of fighting for freedom or doing the right thing or whatever that sounds cool. Or do you think fighting against millions of state-backed hackers is a part of following local regulation?

Did Google pull out of the US when the NSA and friends hacked into their employees and ultimately forced them to give full access?

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#176

Post by tomp » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #158

tomp wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not supporter of free trade, I'm supporter of fair trade. What you've described is simply - unfair. Another extremely unfair thing is different employment & environmental standards. If an EU company opens a Chinese factory just because they can make people work more hours and can pollute the environment more, I don't really see that as a "globalization benefit", but rather as "unlawful competition" which results…

Are you sure your idea of fairness is right? Consider Mongolia, perhaps they want to match EU employment standards but can't afford do. What are they suppose to do? Suppose a democracy decided on different employment standards, should EU ban imports from US due to EU having higher standards of employee and environmental protection? How big does the difference have to be? Does your free trade "fairness" account for th…

It’s a robust rule I’d like to see implemented. Obviously there’s a lot of nuance and important details, some if which you highlighted, but the general idea is, that the goal should be to make a policy that’s “fair” in some way or another, and not just go “hur dur muh free trade” free-for-all. For example, I’d probably give Mongolia a bit of leeway as it’s a poor, developing nation to help them catch up, whereas I think US should be punished mot for the reasons you highlight, but for being a tax haven and maybe even for pollution.

But in general, my argument isn’t about some specific countries, but instead about specific products. A company in Mongolia selling to EU could either not give their employees medical insurance and sell widgets to EU for €50 + 100% tariffs, or treat their employees by EU standards and sell widgets for €100 and no tariffs. The ideal tariffs would exactly balance that (while still allowing Mongolian widgets to be cheaper because of lower wages because of lower cost of living.)

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#177

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #166

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure your idea of fairness is right? Consider Mongolia, perhaps they want to match EU employment standards but can't afford do. What are they suppose to do? Suppose a democracy decided on different employment standards, should EU ban imports from US due to EU having higher standards of employee and environmental protection? How big does the difference have to be? Does your free trade "fairness" account for th…

Factor those externalties - internalized for some manufacturers by regulations - that allow them to manufacture more cheaply into the import tariffs. Trade is not the same as a tariff-free common market.

[deleted]

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#178

Post by jessaustin » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

magicsmoke wrote: post #156

londons_explore wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his won't kill Huawei at all The goal isn't to kill Huawei... it's to make sure that Huawei 5G tech is delayed by 1 or 2 years. Banning their already-designed chips from shipping is a good way to delay them by a year or two. Most of the USA doesn't even have 5G deployed yet, and the US is hoping local manufacturers will get the local market as well as lots of the world market.

US 5G manufacturers are already screwed due to US spectrum allocation, according to this DoD report. https://media.defense.gov/2019/Apr/03/2002109302/-1/-1/0/DIB... TLDR: US spectrum allocation forces US 5G suppliers to design products primarily for the mmWave portion of the spectrum, which suffers from more technical problems such than the sub-6 GHz spectrum that Chinese products are using. The reason why the US did…

It seems kind of silly that USA military would use tech that needs a pristine frequency band in the first place. During a war, are their opponents going to be super-polite about interference? Or, are they going to look at FCC regs when deciding which frequencies to jam?

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#179

Post by jessaustin » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

trixie_ wrote: post #170

someperson wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the invasion of Taiwan is considered by military planners to be an important flash point for World War 3. It would be bloody, and very likely nuclear, and pull in nearby nations like Japan, and will likely end with hundreds of millions (possibly billions) dead.

You need to put 2 and 2 together. The fact that we know it's a 'flash point for World War 3' is exactly why it would not be defended ;)

Not by USA or other allies. However, the Taiwan military could make it painful for the mainlanders. Or, the right bribes to the right officers might grease the skids.

However, this is thinking like American leadership: too short-term. What happens the day after China controls Taiwan? Do all Taiwanese meekly submit to their bullshit? Or do they become an extreme version of Hong Kong? It's mostly Han in Taiwan, so the depravities seen in Xinjiang and Tibet couldn't be instituted there without jeopardizing the legitimacy of the entire state. As long as Chinese leadership is fairly secure in their positions, they won't invade Taiwan.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#180

Post by sudosysgen » Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

forgot_again wrote: post #3

Escalation between the US and China is inevitable. China is fundamentally opposed to everything the US and Democracies around the world stand for politically. Likewise, the US and friends are fundamentally opposed to everything China stands for politically. There is no Universe in which two diametrically opposed juggernauts do not come into conflict. Conflict is simply inevitable when the stakes are this high and the…

This is not true. You're buying into the propaganda, sadly. Both powers care little about democracy. They care about their interests. No need to get nationalistic or even involved in the situation.