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Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

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Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#171

Post by josinalvo »

205guy wrote: post #75

This is the future. Using algorithms to optimize usage of renewable energy. Not only will it be lower carbon, it will be cheaper. What's interesting is they describe it working on forecasts (for wind and sun) instead of instantaneous renewable production. I wonder what the rationale for that was? Basing the algorithm on instantaneous information should be more accurate and thus give better savings, but maybe it varie…

Afaik, the speed with which a cold (or hot) body converges to room temperature is exponential. Maybe that limits the smart fridge idea?

Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#172

Post by globular-toast »

I've had an idea for the longest time that we should get rid of all the processes we've put in place to deliver everything "on-demand" and instead work with nature to get what we can.

What I mean by this is that instead of deciding "I want to drive 200 miles to the beach" and buying a tank of petrol, you would instead wait for favourable wind/solar conditions in order to "save up" the energy you need such that you can afford to drive to the beach. If you are unfortunate one year you might only end up with half of what you need, but you'll still be able to do something.

This goes for things like food too. Stop demanding the same food year round. Instead work with the seasons and eat what is available locally at that time of year.

This would be such a huge boost to happiness. You can't see light if it's light all the time. We just don't know how great our lives are because we simply expect it to all be available at all the time. Expectations are simply assimilated and become invisible very quickly. Not only that but it turns out that meeting these expectations comes at a huge price. Let's instead take what nature gives us, but no more.

Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#174

Post by myself248 »

WalterBright wrote: post #78
205guy wrote: post #75

This is the future. Using algorithms to optimize usage of renewable energy. Not only will it be lower carbon, it will be cheaper. What's interesting is they describe it working on forecasts (for wind and sun) instead of instantaneous renewable production. I wonder what the rationale for that was? Basing the algorithm on instantaneous information should be more accurate and thus give better savings, but maybe it varie…

> Imagine when your fridge can do this I've been posting for years that an effective grid "battery" is internet connected refrigerators, water heaters, A/C, car chargers, etc., that only run when power is cheap, i.e. when solar/wind is providing excess power. A great deal of our demand for electricity is elastic and shiftable, which will eliminate a huge chunk of the need for grid batteries. Glad to see this finally…

Dang, I can't find it right now, but there's a service out there that pays you to reduce your consumption on demand. Use their app to link up with your smart appliances and stuff, and the rest does itself.

Basically they've plugged into the ISO as a "generation" resource, and when the price of power goes high enough, they say "okay we can produce that much power", and they have all their users reduce that much power, which has the same effect. They get paid for the power, and pass some of it along to their users.

Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#175

Post by lightgreen »

berkes wrote: post #144
lightgreen wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“they are either on or off” This is not true about neither nuclear nor coal. Nuclear reaction can be slowed down, coal furnace can be used with lower amount of coal at lower temperature. Nuclear does not need to be turned on or off spontaneously. Nuclear power plant can increase or decrease power smoothly, and that’s practically enough because consumption patterns are easily predicted. The inflexibility you are descr…

They can be slowed down. True. But that takes minutes or hours to do. And on anything but 100% power, the fuel innefficiency is bad. That latter is mostly a problem with coal, but even nuclear is burning fuel and costing wear. Plants can be optimized to react really fast, or run efficient on lower capacity, or run efficient on max capacity. Choose one.

There’s no need to change power output rapidly. Power demand can predicted very well. Sorry, I didn’t understand your argument.

Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#176

Post by the8472 »

ajuc wrote: post #169
4h53n wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree with your overall suggestion, but it would be a mission impossible to change sockets. Indeed, technology for communication over power-lines are nothing new, and doesn't require a new socket/wiring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication A grid supply status, could empower next gen energy saving home appliances. This could be implemented as simple as pricing, the ultimate incentive. Price wo…

> it would be a mission impossible to change sockets Why? I lived through one such change in last 30 years (switching from 2-pole europlugs to CEE 7/7). They are backward-compatible, but so would be the usb+power plugs. We also switched from 60 Hz 240V to 50Hz 230V some time in 00s (don't remember exacty, it was a non-event). As for incentives new electronic devices should simply be reqired to have these plugs and mi…

Adding a data bus to all lines would be a much bigger deal than changing sockets for existing lines or running a slightly different voltage (often within tolerance of the power supplies anyway!) over the same wires.

And USB isn't meant to operate over those long distances. So you'd either need some active component in each socket or devise a new standard.

Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#177

Post by lightgreen »

phaemon wrote: post #167
lightgreen wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The future is nuclear power, and when companies buy hardware they use it at max performance around the clock because energy is cheap and does not depend on weather. There’s huge lie (by omission) about renewables: nobody explained how to convert the world to 100% renewable energy without coal backup.

> There’s huge lie (by omission) about renewables I live in Scotland. We now get around 90% of our electricity from renewables. We closed our last coal power station in 2016. Perhaps you should consider checking your theories against reality before accusing others of lying?

Not every country has so small population and access to hydropower. Sure some small counties can go 100% renewables but it doesn’t scale.

Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#178

Post by lightgreen »

imtringued wrote: post #153
lightgreen wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The future is nuclear power, and when companies buy hardware they use it at max performance around the clock because energy is cheap and does not depend on weather. There’s huge lie (by omission) about renewables: nobody explained how to convert the world to 100% renewable energy without coal backup.

Coal backup is incompatible with renewables. The coal plants clog the grid and prevent the usage of renewables. If you had said gas then those same gas plants could be used to convert hydrogen back into electricity.

It is the opposite: coal plants are turned on only when renewables do not produce.

And I didn’t get about hydrogen. Who can produce hydrogen?

Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#179

Post by ajuc »

the8472 wrote: post #176
ajuc wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it would be a mission impossible to change sockets Why? I lived through one such change in last 30 years (switching from 2-pole europlugs to CEE 7/7). They are backward-compatible, but so would be the usb+power plugs. We also switched from 60 Hz 240V to 50Hz 230V some time in 00s (don't remember exacty, it was a non-event). As for incentives new electronic devices should simply be reqired to have these plugs and mi…

Adding a data bus to all lines would be a much bigger deal than changing sockets for existing lines or running a slightly different voltage (often within tolerance of the power supplies anyway!) over the same wires. And USB isn't meant to operate over those long distances. So you'd either need some active component in each socket or devise a new standard.

It doesn't have to be usb, maybe ethernet would work? Or something new if needed.

Rewiring might be a problem (but it was the same with adding a ground wire).

If we have to we can do the data-over-power between the sockets, and use data lines from sockets to devices.

This would ensure devices don't have to adapt to that hack and eventually we'll have a clean solution.

Re: Our data centers now work harder when the sun shines and wind blows

#180

Post by labawi »

josinalvo wrote: post #171
205guy wrote: post #75

This is the future. Using algorithms to optimize usage of renewable energy. Not only will it be lower carbon, it will be cheaper. What's interesting is they describe it working on forecasts (for wind and sun) instead of instantaneous renewable production. I wonder what the rationale for that was? Basing the algorithm on instantaneous information should be more accurate and thus give better savings, but maybe it varie…

Afaik, the speed with which a cold (or hot) body converges to room temperature is exponential. Maybe that limits the smart fridge idea?

It limits the rate at which you can dump energy without excessive temperature excursions.

If you have the space, you can put thermal mass (e.g. water) between the cooler and produce, acting as a cheap thermal battery dampening temperature oscillations. It's often done in off-grid situations.

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