UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working • Hacker News Board

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#171

Post by tomxor » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 1:29 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #85

tomxor wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What penalty? it's the other way around, you take a 20% penalty if you stop working, and note that it's not for people who voluntarily stop working.

You can easily save 10 to 20% when unemployed because you don't have to pay for daily transportation (tube/train/car), lunch outdoors every day and a few other things. So the difference in disposable income is about null in most cases.

Even if that is the case, it's not your choice, as I said before - it does not apply to those voluntarily unemployed. You are projecting arguments of basic income onto an economic solution for a pandemic where people are suddenly forced into unemployment or unpaid leave for a very specific reason...

Given a lack of choice how can paying wages make any difference to their employment behavior. I'll repeat: this is not basic income.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#172

Post by justsomedude11 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

metaobserver wrote: post #123

justsomedude11 wrote: post #19

I will happily pay 45% tax on my salary knowing the Gov has my back in difficult times like these. I'm fortunate enough to still have a job, but I'm happy I live in Europe.

Why would you prefer the government to manage your money instead of investing and saving it yourself?

The government is already doing that for me. My tax contributions go towards pension, healthcare, public services... I don't have to worry about taking a bank loan to go to the hospital or what I'm going to do when I retire.

I used to take things for granted, now news like "I have to pay $30k for Corona virus hospital treatment" make me appreciate being born in "socialist" Europe. To each their own.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#173

Post by user5994461 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

tomxor wrote: post #171

user5994461 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can easily save 10 to 20% when unemployed because you don't have to pay for daily transportation (tube/train/car), lunch outdoors every day and a few other things. So the difference in disposable income is about null in most cases.

Even if that is the case, it's not your choice, as I said before - it does not apply to those voluntarily unemployed. You are projecting arguments of basic income onto an economic solution for a pandemic where people are suddenly forced into unemployment or unpaid leave for a very specific reason... Given a lack of choice how can paying wages make any difference to their employment behavior. I'll repeat: this is not…

This had nothing to do with basic income. We're talking unemployment for people who get laid off from their jobs.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#174

Post by tomxor » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #173

tomxor wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that is the case, it's not your choice, as I said before - it does not apply to those voluntarily unemployed. You are projecting arguments of basic income onto an economic solution for a pandemic where people are suddenly forced into unemployment or unpaid leave for a very specific reason... Given a lack of choice how can paying wages make any difference to their employment behavior. I'll repeat: this is not…

This had nothing to do with basic income. We're talking unemployment for people who get laid off from their jobs.

Then you clearly didn't read the article, the headline is:

> The government will pay the wages of employees unable to work due to the coronavirus pandemic

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#175

Post by t0mas88 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:07 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #164

t0mas88 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sales tax is on top of course, but social security and state provided pension is included in the 40% to 52% here (the percentage depends on total yearly income) We pay between 0 and 100 euro per month for health insurance, which covers basically everything with a very low co-pay amount (like 150 euros per year max) Student loans are also much much lower. We pay 1600 euros per year tuition, the rest is government paid…

> Sales tax is on top of course, but social security and state provided pension is included in the 40% to 52% here (the percentage depends on total yearly income) Likely depends on the country. It's not in Germany, and 45% is the highest tax bracket which few people will reach, but 43% is very achievable and you'll find plenty of knowledge workers in that bracket as it starts at ~55k €. Add ~20% sales tax, very high…

Indeed very country dependent. Netherlands is 50% (used to be 52) starting around € 55k. That sounds higher than Germany, but then in our case social security and an allowance for elderly is included. So in the end I guess the part of your income you pay is similar in most European countries it's just structured differently. And indeed, it's a very big part.

The US has a low income tax, but then the middle class needs to pay for their own health insurance (at $ 600 a month), disability insurance and pension etc. which means they end up not far different from Europe.

The big difference is at the extremes of the scale, the very poor and the very rich. In the US the poor don't have any health insurance, disability insurance, or pension etc because they cannot afford it. And the very rich in the US are way better off than they would be in Europe, because for them a low income tax greatly outweighs the costs of insurance etc.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#176

Post by Mvandenbergh » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #163

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but then isn't it better to take this approach - 80% of your salary for people out of work and nothing for people still employed - than to give an arbitrary amount of $1000 to everyone regardless of local cost of living?

Sure, they could do it through unemployment claims as well.

While that supports people, which is the most important thing, it does not preserve the status quo jobs.

That means that when we are able to restart the economy, we start with massive unemployment and with companies which have simply ceased to exist. Much better to just put everything in the deep-freeze and then pull it out, ready to go when we can.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#177

Post by ericd » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #176

ericd wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they could do it through unemployment claims as well.

While that supports people, which is the most important thing, it does not preserve the status quo jobs. That means that when we are able to restart the economy, we start with massive unemployment and with companies which have simply ceased to exist. Much better to just put everything in the deep-freeze and then pull it out, ready to go when we can.

Yeah, that would be nice, I just don’t know that we can pull off what you’re talking about.

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#178

Post by metaobserver » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #135

metaobserver wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you prefer the government to manage your money instead of investing and saving it yourself?

Because government is an easy way to work together on big problems. Things like charity are great, but the participation rate tends to be a whole lot lower than you can get from taxes.

The OP was praising high taxes. If he paid lower tax, he would have more money to spend, also on helping others. Do you think it's ethical to force people into charity?

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#179

Post by metaobserver » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:00 PM UTC

justsomedude11 wrote: post #172

metaobserver wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you prefer the government to manage your money instead of investing and saving it yourself?

The government is already doing that for me. My tax contributions go towards pension, healthcare, public services... I don't have to worry about taking a bank loan to go to the hospital or what I'm going to do when I retire. I used to take things for granted, now news like "I have to pay $30k for Corona virus hospital treatment" make me appreciate being born in "socialist" Europe. To each their own.

Do you think the government is managing your money better than you would? Aren't you concerned that big part of it funds the bureaucratic apparatus itself? Aren't you concerned that you are not paying for your own retirement and in our aging Europe 30 years from now there will be not enough working people to pay for yours? Don't you think that paying a lower tax (e.g. 25%) would leave you with more money to cover that 30keur for yourself or generously help others?

Re: UK government to pay up to 80% of wages for employees not working

#180

Post by metaobserver » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #166

metaobserver wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you prefer the government to manage your money instead of investing and saving it yourself?

Simple. I trust the British government to do the right thing more than I trust the likes of HSBC, Microsoft, Google, Unilever and any other company that's built by greedy people whose sole concern is generating profits for themselves and their shareholders.

Wait. Do you think it's the right thing now for the FED, ECB and other central banks to print money day and night and eradicate savings of hard working people via inflation?

I'm not sure why you bring up those companies in response to my proposal of managing your own money. But since you mention how purely evil those companies are, last time I checked they were employing real people, working on real products and services, supporting their families and contributing to the economy. I'm not a fan of big corp, bit it's not so black and white.