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Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

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Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#171

Post by Nextgrid »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #122
ukoki wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Big sites will eventually convert to essentially "a web browser inside a web browser" so they have total control over the content and how it's displayed. This has already happened: Just look at how many websites pester you to download their mobile app or even block content unless you access from the app. From a user functionality perspective the vast majority of apps do nothing a browser can't do. But the killer fe…

> Just look at how many websites pester you to download their mobile app or even block content unless you access from the app. Users should respond by creating an open source replacement for the official app. Surely there's a way to fool the server into thinking it's talking to the official app.

The problem here is that these companies can abuse the DMCA to get the app outlawed and pulled from the major app stores. In fact, Apple already doesn't allow you to publish any app that interacts with any reasonably big third-party service or device without the explicit approval of the service (that's how alternative YouTube clients disappeared on iOS), even for devices such as smart light bulbs that are explicitly designed to be controlled via the local network without any authentication: https://community.lifx.com/t/app-store-rejection-permission-...

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#172

Post by rcxdude »

robertlagrant wrote: post #138
SignalsFromBob wrote: post #109

I feel that we've done ourselves a disservice by referring to them as ad blockers rather than content blockers or, better yet, virus blockers. With malicious ads being the primary vector for compromising a person's computer, calling these tools virus blockers would not only be more accurate, but it would make it harder for sites to counter their use from a public relations point of view. Could you imagine visiting a…

> With malicious ads being the primary vector for compromising a person's computer, calling these tools virus blockers would not only be more accurate, but it would make it harder for sites to counter their use from a public relations point of view. I don't understand this. How are malicious ads the primary way to compromise a computer?

Even if you have a zero-day exploit for a browser, you still need to get that exploit to your victims. Ads are the easiest way to get custom media and javascript into as many browsers as possible. Ptherwise, you need to tempt users to your malicous site or find an exploit in a widely used site to get your payload to users (since most sites do not allow users to post arbitrary HTML, CSS or javascript).

Ad networks are supposed to vet ads to make sure they are safe, but they're bad at it and the system is not set up to make it easy (ads are dynamically generated by whoever's buying them as the page loads).

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#173

Post by JohnFen »

cwzwarich wrote: post #107
birdyrooster wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those Web Assembly sites will still have memory accessible by the end user, ads will still be blocked. They would need to server side render pages like a streaming game client would.

What about a dystopian future where sites only work via SGX-like secure compute environments that remotely attest the execution environment to the server?

That's effectively a future without the web at all.

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#174

Post by zzzcpan »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #162
birdyrooster wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of A/B testing that likely was the method Google unwittingly used to obfuscate sponsored results in Search. The A/B test KPI they were measuring clearly was creating more click through to sponsored properties and it eroded trust and utility in exchange. I am sure they increased their short term Ad Words profits.

I keep saying: A/B testing is how Satan influences this world. They make it all too easy to turn your product development into optimizing bad metrics, and they give ammunition for justifying self-destructive decisions (it must be good, the data says so).

It's just A/B testing happens to align well with being an employee, not caring about the company, the future of the company, only caring to impress your boss short term and then getting promoted or leaving for another company. It's like a perfect selfish short term instrument for that, it doesn't burden you with mid and long term consequences.

But it's actually pretty hard to find something where A/B testing would be appropriate, outside of measuring effectiveness of ads of course, since they are naturally short term and consequence-free.

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#175

Post by kurehajime »

Ad blockers were born earlier than the Internet and personal computers.

---

A Personal Computer for Children of All Ages

Alan C. Kay

Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, 1972

https://www.mprove.de/visionreality/media/kay72.html

>A combination of this "carry anywhere" device and a global information utility such as the ARPA network or two-way cable TV, will bring the libraries and schools (not to mention stores and billboards) or the world to the home. One can imagine one of the first programs an owner will write is a filter to eliminate advertising!

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#176

Post by Nextgrid »

tayo42 wrote: post #116
mrlala wrote: post #111

Who is honestly clicking on all these ads that makes advertising worthwhile? I am honestly baffled sometimes how this all works... In my 30+ years of internet usage in one form or another I have rarely, rarely, rarely ever clicked on a freakin ad. Yes, I've generally had them blocked for the most part. But when they aren't blocked, I see what the content is and why would I even want to click on one! Color me confused…

Part of me thinks theres an internet ad bubble. I think its really hard to know how much value an ad provides, so it gets handwaved as being critical to success and worth tons of money. A lot of big internet companies rely on ads or provide services to companies that provide ads or make it easier to use ads.

I wouldn't say that ads are completely ineffective (there's a significant chunk of the population that doesn't resent ads like we do, and will actually click on them even if they're aware that they're ads), but I agree that there's definitely a bubble going on.

I've seen many non-tech people search for a certain brand or product, and despite it being the first non-sponsored search result, they will instead click on the sponsored result/ad ad the top even though it's the same product.

The above causes the metrics and conversion rate to look great, so the waste of oxygen that is the marketing department can justify their salary and budget, the ad providers and all the ecosystem around it also gets paid, but at the end of the day that ad wasn't actually providing any value because the user already had the brand in mind and only clicked the ad by mistake.

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#177

Post by mumblemumble »

umvi wrote: post #167
TeMPOraL wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep saying: A/B testing is how Satan influences this world. They make it all too easy to turn your product development into optimizing bad metrics, and they give ammunition for justifying self-destructive decisions (it must be good, the data says so).

> it must be good, the data says so Slightly unrelated, but I heard a good quote the other day: "If you torture the data long enough, it will confess."

With the advent of AutoML tools, it doesn't even take that long anymore.

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#178

Post by matheusmoreira »

Nextgrid wrote: post #171
matheusmoreira wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just look at how many websites pester you to download their mobile app or even block content unless you access from the app. Users should respond by creating an open source replacement for the official app. Surely there's a way to fool the server into thinking it's talking to the official app.

The problem here is that these companies can abuse the DMCA to get the app outlawed and pulled from the major app stores. In fact, Apple already doesn't allow you to publish any app that interacts with any reasonably big third-party service or device without the explicit approval of the service (that's how alternative YouTube clients disappeared on iOS), even for devices such as smart light bulbs that are explicitly…

Apple devices aren't free computer systems. Apple owns the devices, not the users. They gave up their freedom when they bought a computer that doesn't give them the keys to the system. They have little choice other than to accept whatever conditions the big corporations impose on them.

Thankfully, iOS does not represent all systems out there. Android systems allow installation of apps from any source and PCs traditionally have no limitations on which programs can be executed by the user. Better alternatives to these abusive "official" apps should be a selling point for these free systems. A perfect example of adversarial interoperability:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/06/adversarial-interopera...

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#179

Post by crispinb »

mrlala wrote: post #111

Who is honestly clicking on all these ads that makes advertising worthwhile? I am honestly baffled sometimes how this all works... In my 30+ years of internet usage in one form or another I have rarely, rarely, rarely ever clicked on a freakin ad. Yes, I've generally had them blocked for the most part. But when they aren't blocked, I see what the content is and why would I even want to click on one! Color me confused…

I'm fairly extreme about ad blocking. If I'm aware of seeing an ad anywhere (street, web, cinema), I put the advertised product on a block list and will never buy it. This isn't quite as restrictive as it sounds because I have the facility to mentally tune out ads in public spaces almost completely.

If I were typical, advertising would collapse almost overnight.

The lesson I take from that is that we're just not the people advertisers are aiming at.

Re: Are ad blockers doomed or have we already won? A history lesson

#180

Post by the8472 »

mrspeaker wrote: post #4

Great article! It's funny to finally see ad blockers go "mainstream". My dystopian-future fear is that that Web Assembly will be the end of ad blocking (and the end of a web of connected web sites). Big sites will eventually convert to essentially "a web browser inside a web browser" so they have total control over the content and how it's displayed. Then ad blocking (and other customization) will be limited to "the…

Perhaps some more web features should become opt-in via nagbars (e.g. canvas and wasm)
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