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The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

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Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#171
I'm an active Mormon, and I want to try to address a couple of the ideas being discussed on this thread. My purpose is not to change anyone's mind, nor is it to defend the LDS church in this particular case (actually I think they've got it quite wrong). Instead, it is to inform people what the culture of the church is like, and maybe if I'm really successful to help you understand how we can produce members like Clay Christensen on the one hand, and own 2% of Florida on the other.

One thing to understand about the LDS church is that the leadership is drawn from the membership, but is really really not representative of that membership. In order to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the highest leadership body in the church, you essentially have to have spent decades serving full-time as a church leader at lower levels. This means that all the members of the quorum are old men (and yes, they are all men - that's another discussion). We have been accused - correctly - of being a gerontocracy.

There are two implications of this. One is that on social issues, the church leadership lags the membership by at least a generation, usually two. Furthermore, the upper membership of the church leads by consensus, ideally unanimous consensus. It takes a long time to get more than a dozen people on the same page about almost anything, much less something like the theological implications of homosexuality (to name one topic of the day). This goes some way to explaining why the leadership keeps getting caught flat-footed when regarding issues of transparency, LGBTQ relations, race, and so on. They aren't the internet generation and it shows.

But it has a second implication as well. Church leadership often remembers and understands church history completely differently than the lay membership does. In particular, for this issue, in the early part of the 20th century the church nearly went bankrupt. They ended up calling several people with strong business backgrounds to the Quorum of the Twelve, and one of those went on to become President. They managed to put the church's finances on a firm foundation. For obvious reasons, none of this tends to get discussed in Sunday School, and most of the membership of the church no longer remembers it. But the leadership most certainly does. In addition, it led to more and more church leaders having business backgrounds instead of pastoral care backgrounds, and as a consequence they tend to view achieving a good ROI on "the Lord's money" as being a primary good. I personally disagree, but it is what it is.

Next, one thing to note is that none of the church leadership is personally getting rich off of tithing funds. The leadership draws a salary; that salary lets them live comfortably, but it isn't 7 figures. Nobody lives in a mansion or flies a private jet. So, then, why are they sitting on an enormous cash pile? In my personal opinion, it isn't primarily about the money. It's primarily about increasing commitment to the institution. Paying tithing is "faith promoting". It gives the membership skin in the game. They aren't just showing up to a church building for two hours on Sunday. They're actively participating in building the Kingdom of God.

Of course, you can take the phrase "commitment to the institution" two different ways, depending on your going-in assumptions. For the faithful, building the faith of the membership is a primary good and indeed a principal goal of God. For the skeptical it looks like brainwashing with a nice side benefit of extra cash in the coffers.

The next obvious question is, even if you're one of the faithful, and you assume that paying tithing is indeed a good way of building a faith community, can't they come up with ways of using the money that are more in line with Christ's teachings than buying up 2% of Florida? And I wholeheartedly agree. There are. And, of course, owning large tracts of real estate and a mall in downtown Salt Lake City and your own private securities investment firm don't make a lot of sense if nobody in the leadership is living like a sheik. So why not spend all of (or at least a lot more of) that cash on charitable works? Why not just go in and rebuild Haiti, or cure cancer, or something?

And I honestly don't know. I go back to the leadership's business background and their recollection of the church nearly going bankrupt, and I can sort of see it... but then I read the Sermon on the Mount, and I can't again. I have to chalk it up to a lack of imagination, combined with a loss of pastoral care instincts in the church leadership.

For what it's worth, I think it will change... eventually. The time constant of change in the LDS church is something like 20 years, so don't expect it to happen tomorrow.

Finally, for those of you who have left the church and felt like it tried to take your dignity when you left, I'm sorry. My wife left, and that wasn't our experience. Your experience with the church is almost completely due to the culture and local leadership in your local congregation, and in a lot of cases that can be quite good, but it can also be fairly toxic if you're unlucky. I've experienced both, but more of the former. Of course, my experiences don't help you if yours are different. I hope you find your peace.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#172
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was $100B in assets and investments, not cash on hand. Did I understand wrong?

You're right, but that doesn't seem to be GP's core point.

One is a lot more defensible than the other. Having $100B cash on hand would just be stupid. Having invested $100B could be seen as more like an endowment if they produce income.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#173
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our tax code is not perfect but the path forward is to look at it in totality... the minute you try to solve one problem here, you’ll create a dozen there. Not really. Remove all exemption, deductions, credits, and special treatments.

Generally I’m with you but in the case of religion, I think it’s a bad idea to tax one’s belief in God. The key issue here is the state isn’t supreme... just because there is untaxed wealth doesn’t mean it automatically belongs to the government... especially if we believe in separation of church and state.

> Generally I’m with you but in the case of religion, I think it’s a bad idea to tax one’s belief in God.

What's the taxable income or capital gains of a belief, exactly?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#174
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

A lot of what the Mormon Church teaches is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Mormonism and Christianity are two separate things much like Christianity and Judaism are separate.

That could hardly be farther from the truth.

The church does have extrabiblical volumes of scripture, which also testify of Christ and go into more depth, but every doctrine of the church is in harmony with the Old and New Testaments. Members believe it is only by faith in Christ and by good works that they can be saved.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#175
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God." -Jesus Matthew 19:24

It’s “the eye of the needle”. It was a very narrow gate into Jerusalem, which camels had difficulty traversing.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#176
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the irony that the scripture you quote was given to the priests, who were benefiting from the tithes and offerings of the nation [akin to the Mormon church giving luxurious homes to their General Authorities and plum book deals through Deseret Book], not the people themselves. Tithing got re-defined over the years. Consider: https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too...

Do you really think former heart surgeons and company executives are making more money now on the general authority stipend than before?

Let's collate our conversation regarding this to the other thread.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#177
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our tax code is not perfect but the path forward is to look at it in totality... the minute you try to solve one problem here, you’ll create a dozen there. Not really. Remove all exemption, deductions, credits, and special treatments.

Generally I’m with you but in the case of religion, I think it’s a bad idea to tax one’s belief in God. The key issue here is the state isn’t supreme... just because there is untaxed wealth doesn’t mean it automatically belongs to the government... especially if we believe in separation of church and state.

Not providing an exemption for donations is not taxing one’s beliefs.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#178
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re preparing for the end of the world. They call themselves “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”, and take that moniker seriously.

That argument doesn't make sense. If TEOTWAWKI happens their investments will become worthless.

They believe they will not only survive it, but become the world-wide government.

The $100B in holdings are a small part of their assets. They have large real estate holdings (e.g. 2% of Florida) as well as a very diversified portfolio.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet there are some people in the background who make tons of money through contracts as suppliers . Seems this happens with most big non profits.

You bet or do you know? Just sounds like you're accusing people without any proof.

I don’t know for sure but when I lived in DC I knew non profit people. They told me lots of stories about leadership giving contracts to their friends for outrageous prices. Where do you think all the money political parties or organizations like the NRA or Greenpeace are raising goes?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#180
post #135
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what? It's how they got the money (typically manipulation[0][1] and free-will donations) and how they spend the money (politics, for-profit ventures) [2][3]. [0] http://johnlarsen.org/mormon-expression/ Episode 250 [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/7p09zl/today_i_le... LDS Philanthropies produced a video encouraging wealthy people to leave inheritance with the LDS church to keep their kids in line.…

The tiresome argument is that "organization I don't like has a lot of money... they should stop having a lot of money!" There may be a plethora of valid reasons to dislike the organization, but it doesn't follow that they shouldn't have a lot of money unless you think nobody should have a lot of money. And if that is your argument, you should also consider if that includes the US government. We are talking about orga…

Are you responding to my comment? I don't see the connection. If I'm mistaken, could you expand a little bit?
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