Wacom tablets track every app you open • Hacker News Board

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#171

Post by tinus_hn » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:32 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #24

On Linux you'd be using the community-maintained drivers[0], so I assume this wouldn't be a problem (correct me if I'm wrong). But as far as I can tell, there's not equivalent Open Wacom drivers for Windows. People with more Windows knowledge than me: any thoughts on why? Is it just that someone using Windows probably doesn't care about Open drivers, so the demand isn't there? Or is there something about Windows that…

Windows drivers on 32bit Windows request and on 64bit Windows require certification.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#172

Post by AJ007 » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

CarelessExpert wrote: post #82

excerionsforte wrote: post #59

I'm fine with Wacom collecting this kind of data as long as it doesn't open any security holes. There are certain classes of products where I would not care what they collected as long as it was relevant to improving the product. i.e. Wacom wants to know popular apps I use my tablet on, ok. If they wanted to know my approx location though then I'd be alarmed.

Then they should be very open, up front, and explicit about asking for your consent, including describing what they will be collecting, and also making it very clear you can decline without negative consequences. I'm fairly comfortable with data collection if the user opts in , but the current trend--dark patterns where you put out a blanket "we will collect stuff" disclaimer that lacks any specifics, while not makin…

It is illegal under GDPR. Under CCPA you request all of this information Wacom has, and also tell them to delete it.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#173

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #170

I wonder what the comfortable medium between privacy and letting developers get feedback about how well their code works is. It seems to me like Wacom just wants to know if their drivers work, so they can focus engineering efforts around fixing the issues that are affecting their users. "Oh hey, the new beta of Photoshop breaks our drivers!" They don't make a "cloud product" and they have an obligation to make their…

> I wonder what the comfortable medium between privacy and letting developers get feedback about how well their code works is.

I consider the nut of the problem to be informed consent. If you have user's informed consent to get the feedback, then there is no problem. If you don't, then the whole operation is unacceptable.

And no, mentioning it in the privacy policy or terms of use don't count as "informed consent".

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#174

Post by tinus_hn » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

It’s almost as if this is some sleazy attempt to get around malware checks by selectively disabling this behavior. Unacceptable.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#175

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #149

phoe-krk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless they want easy money. Show me a modern mid-sized, independently operated/capitalized corporation that doesn't want it.

Having started numerous tech companies myself, interviewed hundreds of others who have, and started a community that instructions others on how to do so, I will say that HN's perception of how easy, profitable, and common it is to have a business model focused on selling data is overblown. I'd wager the vast majority of data collectors (e.g. Google Analytics accounts) just want it for their own internal decision-maki…

Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong.

But trusting companies to do the right thing is untenable. That trust has been broken far too often, by far too many companies. The only rational position a concerned user can take is to assume that anybody collecting such sensitive information (particularly in a sneaky way) intends to monetize it or use it for purposes other than product improvement.

And even if the data really will only be used for product development, getting the user's informed consent -- and refraining from data collection without it -- is critical.

Further, using GA automatically means that the data is being used for Google's purposes as well as the application creator's.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#176

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #155

st3fan wrote: post #117

"In some ways it feels unfair to single out Wacom." - Uh no, it is completely fair to single them out and put them in the spotlight for doing this kind of tracking.

I think the statement was meant to indicate that this kind of behavior is well-nigh ubiquitous, so the only thing really different about Wacom is that they're the one we're talking about, when they are by no means the worst offender.

I'm sure that's exactly what it means -- but it's still fair to call out individual companies that engage in this misbehavior. That others are doing it as well isn't important.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#177

Post by irq11 » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #173

jrockway wrote: post #170

I wonder what the comfortable medium between privacy and letting developers get feedback about how well their code works is. It seems to me like Wacom just wants to know if their drivers work, so they can focus engineering efforts around fixing the issues that are affecting their users. "Oh hey, the new beta of Photoshop breaks our drivers!" They don't make a "cloud product" and they have an obligation to make their…

> I wonder what the comfortable medium between privacy and letting developers get feedback about how well their code works is. I consider the nut of the problem to be informed consent. If you have user's informed consent to get the feedback, then there is no problem. If you don't, then the whole operation is unacceptable. And no, mentioning it in the privacy policy or terms of use don't count as "informed consent".

Thing that I know happens, from personal experience: you can put a giant modal alert, and write in blinking, all caps, 60pt bright-red font that you will do something unless the user presses a button, then draw a bright red arrow to the button. Users will still complain that they weren’t informed.

Users are lazy and dumb, and the most ideological users are often the laziest and/or the dumbest, because they have an agenda. They will go out of their way not to give you the benefit of the doubt (”why was the font not 80pt? Clearly, you’re trying to hide something from users on high resolution screens!”)

It never ends.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#178

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

diffeomorphism wrote: post #20

While this implementation obviously has privacy issues, the anonymized aggregate data would be quite interesting, e.g. how many people use photoshop, illustrator, etc. with their wacom tablets. The problem then seems to be more about the false positives. If you use "Half Life 3 Test Build" that is useless info for wacom because it (presumably) doesn't care about pen input. Q: If the data were filtered to just art/gra…

> Q: If the data were filtered to just art/graphics apps using the pen, would that still be problematic?

Yes.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#179

Post by zubspace » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:45 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #170

I wonder what the comfortable medium between privacy and letting developers get feedback about how well their code works is. It seems to me like Wacom just wants to know if their drivers work, so they can focus engineering efforts around fixing the issues that are affecting their users. "Oh hey, the new beta of Photoshop breaks our drivers!" They don't make a "cloud product" and they have an obligation to make their…

I understand the need for developers to know more about the hardware and software running on their client machines. For example, I believe information like the hardware survey from Valve [1] are very valuable for the whole industry.

But there's a some kind of an etiquette you need to follow, if a company wishes to collect data:

- Be straightforward. Say what information you are collecting, at what time and what for.

- Tell me in what way this information will be stored and how will it be anonymized.

- Will the data be stored forever? And is there a way for me to request the data or it's deletion?

- Don't collect data per default. Make it opt-in.

- Publicize the data in a suitable way. It may be useful to others.

Wacom simply ignored all of that human decency. How can you ever trust this company again?

[1] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#180

Post by JohnFen » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:45 PM UTC

diffeomorphism wrote: post #86

_jal wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would that still be problematic? Yes. When thinking about data, you need to think about orthogonal uses. Can you imagine reasons why someone might subpoena data to determine whether Photoshop was being used on my home desktop machines at a particular time? They might not care that it was Photoshop at all.

Any data collection of course has a privacy cost and should of course be opt in. What about aggregate data limited to art apps? For example if it only sends a monthly summary: used photoshop with a wacom tablet for 15 hours this month, illustrator for 3 hours this month?

> What about aggregate data limited to art apps?

Well with the proviso you stated that informed consent has been obtained first, then this would be fine (as would more frequent/less targeted collection). If not, then this is not fine.