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Working for a startup makes less sense

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Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#171

Post by divbzero »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #125

I've had a related discussion with a few VCs in recent months. Some kinds of startups are effectively impossible to build given current structural constraints on financing them, creating an adverse selection for startups that fit the classic model rather than startups with the highest expected ROI. Broadly speaking, engineers will work at a discount to market-clearing wages of maybe 20% if they really like the startu…

> Some types of software startups can't be built without a team of engineers where the market-clearing wages are typically more like $500k-1M.

What types of software startups have these constraints?

And, as suggested in sibling comments, could building a highly technical founding team (e.g. bootstrapping) be a viable alternative to hiring with high wages? There ought to be a sizable subset of highly skilled engineers who have achieved financial independence and would enjoy tackling a challenging problem in a startup.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#172

Post by siquick »

sl1ck731 wrote: post #157
siquick wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad all the great artists, musicians, writers, theorists, scientists, teachers, and inventors throughout history didn't read this post.

If we want to equate them then we should aspire to write code that is meaningless while we are alive, while living our entire lives poorly or being completely ostracized in society? I'm not sure the startup angle jives with the artist's.

Most of the code I've written in my life has been meaningless, but yes I get paid well. The ostracisation happened to a lot of devs during high school through the invention of the wedgee.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#173

Post by senordevnyc »

soup10 wrote: post #105
senordevnyc wrote: post #65

Strongly agree with this. I just did about seven weeks of interviewing in NYC for senior iOS roles, at both startups and big tech companies. To be frank, it was a total shitshow. Especially on the startup side. Here’s some of the bullshit I faced interviewing at early stage companies before accepting an offer literally 2.5x as high as the (multiple) offers that startups made. 1. Shitty equity: one startup wanted me t…

>watching them get squeezed by big tech companies offering sky high comp fills me with glee. Enjoy your new life as a corporate drone! Note to the salty drones in the comments below: I started a business that was passively profitable for years and now pretty much just work on what interests me

I was self-employed for more than a decade and I made $300k - 400k for years. I'm not at all worried about the corporate life. If I don't like it, I'll go do my own thing again, no problem. What I won't do is work for a third of the income and convince myself that I'm one of the cool kids because there's a ping-pong table in my office and my "CEO" made some 30 under 30 list.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#174

Post by Answerawake »

TrackerFF wrote: post #99
Answerawake wrote: post #58

"To make the situation worse, the very good engineers, the ones who could truly help build a tech company from the ground up from day 1, were getting offers so exorbitant they could not possibly fathom to turn them down." Ok I have seen this written every now and then. What does this person look like and how do I become one given a willing to sacrifice everything else? I can not find a good answer to this question. E…

Ignoring all the indicators that's been mentioned (acing all interviews, right pedigree, etc.) - Solid results too show - Fantastic references I know a lot of younger guys have these pipe dreams of sacrificing their youth, going to the best university, studying years for interviews, and looking / being the "perfect" candidate come interview time, without actually having built anything of substance. Sure - you will pr…

>I think the roadmap look pretty boring, but it's what it is. Read, build, analyze, and understand. Have vision, and get good. If someones gonna hire you to design / build / develop their product, then you need to be able to lead and deliver. Hard work, experience, and good networking skills.

This is probably the clearest answer that I have gotten so far so thanks.

However I was hoping for something more exact. I guess there is no perfect path that someone can take.

I think I also asked my question incorrectly seeing the other answers I got.

What I was really looking for was how can I as a 29 year old graduate of a CS program who is currently working as a developer(Doing nothing exciting at a enterprise company) get to that goal(the one mentioned in the original comment). Like what steps should be taken going forward.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#175

Post by senordevnyc »

paulmendoza wrote: post #145
ben509 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not your whole life because we're living longer and it's enough money to retire earlier. Suck up the drone life, retire early and spend 50 years with no boss, no customers, just tooling away on whatever you please.

I find big companies to be incredibly frustrating. It is so hard to get anything done. As a result I have gravitated towards startups. I know I have made less money but I love the daily feeling of having an impact. I think startups are great for junior employees because you learn so much so quickly. Eventually if you want to be successful in startups you need to start your own startup. The payout on 25% ownership at…

I'm hopeful that there's a middle ground. The company I chose is on the smaller side (think Dropbox, Snap, Twitter, etc) but still public. My team is even smaller, I'll be one of a handful of iOS devs on the product I work on. But we'll see, it might suck!

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#176

Post by alasdair_ »

siquick wrote: post #149
account73466 wrote: post #102

I feel like it is hard for people to say what they truly love before they have at least $1M in their bank account. If you have FU money, your view on working at a FAANG vs building a startup can change. You will find it easier to know what you truly LOVE.

I'm glad all the great artists, musicians, writers, theorists, scientists, teachers, and inventors throughout history didn't read this post.

A remarkably large number of the most notable of those people came from wealthy families - that’s what allowed them the single-minded focus, instead of worrying about food and healthcare.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#177

Post by AndrewKemendo »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #125

I've had a related discussion with a few VCs in recent months. Some kinds of startups are effectively impossible to build given current structural constraints on financing them, creating an adverse selection for startups that fit the classic model rather than startups with the highest expected ROI. Broadly speaking, engineers will work at a discount to market-clearing wages of maybe 20% if they really like the startu…

This is a good summation of the current challenges with startups that are attempting to compete on technical merit. I know this first hand as I started a computer vision company right around 2012 when the "AI" boom was really picking up steam. I would never dream today of starting a very technical company because every major will poach your talent (happened to me), invest in your competitors or attempt to acquire you (some people don't want to be acquired).

Contrary to your points, I don't see any way this will change until some big technology revolution happens that puts power back into the hands of creators - though that might be a pipedream.

Note, that doesn't mean you can't start and be successful with a company. What I'm trying to point out is that the days of a scrappy upstart coming along to "unseat the leaders" doesn't seem anywhere near realistic.

The only counter to this might be worldwide competition - so for example I could see Tencent getting bigger than Facebook in total user numbers. I'm not sure if these are comparable because they are in segmented markets.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#178

Post by euix »

caseyf7 wrote: post #147
senordevnyc wrote: post #65

Strongly agree with this. I just did about seven weeks of interviewing in NYC for senior iOS roles, at both startups and big tech companies. To be frank, it was a total shitshow. Especially on the startup side. Here’s some of the bullshit I faced interviewing at early stage companies before accepting an offer literally 2.5x as high as the (multiple) offers that startups made. 1. Shitty equity: one startup wanted me t…

The startups should have a higher bar for hiring. A bad senior hire is much harder for a startup to absorb.

This. You can be average or mediocre at a big company as there are lots of places to hide. There is nowhere to hide at a startup, in addition, a single hire can make or break a startup. More then anything a startup is just a collection of talent. Unlike a big company which might have physical assets, IP and other valuables. A startup is really just a pool of talent. So if there isn't any, well it wasn't going to work.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#179

Post by alasdair_ »

senordevnyc wrote: post #65

Strongly agree with this. I just did about seven weeks of interviewing in NYC for senior iOS roles, at both startups and big tech companies. To be frank, it was a total shitshow. Especially on the startup side. Here’s some of the bullshit I faced interviewing at early stage companies before accepting an offer literally 2.5x as high as the (multiple) offers that startups made. 1. Shitty equity: one startup wanted me t…

There are definitely startups that offer better equity terms - the last one I was at offered ten years to exercise after leaving. I hope the trend continues.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#180

Post by account73466 »

siquick wrote: post #167
account73466 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a scientist and thousands of scientists and engineers use my work. Most great artists, musicians, writers, theorists, scientists, teachers, and inventors would not need to struggle as much if they would have some money to cover their basic needs. They would just avoid bullshit gigs and do they stuff with a greater focus. And if having $1M in their bank account would stop them doing what they love, then it is qui…

Artistic pieces or songs are generally a representation of an event, a struggle, or a state of mind - if you lead a cushy life then no, you're not going to have the same output than if you were living on the breadline. There's a reason that history is dotted with songs and pieces of art that were written during times of struggle.

>> you're not going to have the same output than if you were living on the breadline

That is what poor people are told to justify their struggle.

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