Downsides to working at a tech giant • Hacker News Board

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#171

Post by allovernow » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

>We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us

I think the kind of people with the balls (or stupidity) to join/found a startup tend to be the kind of people who don't listen to what everyone else is doing anyway. This might have a sort of positive selection bias: you need a minimum amount of risk tolerance to succeed in a venture.

>Work at startups because you’ll work with people who have risk profiles that are much more likely to generate outsized returns as a group. You’ll have the opportunity to join or create a community of high-performing folks that, in aggregate, outperforms anything you can do on your own. Maybe you’ll be the CEO one day, maybe not, but no matter what you are very likely to come out ahead if you apply yourself.

After failing with a personal venture, I recently joined a small startup and I can offer an similar perspective: working here is amazing for a generalist because once your coworkers trust you, you have more freedom than you could ever ask for, and your personal decisions have compounding effects on the direction of the product that you're building. There is zero bureaucracy. This is a dangerous place which requires a knack for hiring the right kind of independent thinkers and doers who do not need hand holding and tend to have good understanding of large systems - but when the org is small and the team is well selected, if you're building something truly new and useful to society (read: not adtech or social networking) the feeling is magical and being enthusiastic about your job does wonders for life satisfaction.

I know this is a temporary state that will disappear if we fail or grow into a midsize company, so I'm trying to savor it while it lasts. Also helps to have no family so that you can crunch when necessary without hesitation.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#172

Post by novok » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:37 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

The reason why is the math changed. The gap between startup and tech giant is much larger now than it was in 2010. Also, unless you have insider access and join a very risky angel stage company, the likelihood of getting a good package that makes sense is low, very low. Also public companies have shown to get +3x gains, which can make the math even worse.

Example from personal experience that is very lucky in startup land:

I'm an unwise jr, who gets a 25k (with 25k stock units) purchase price stock plan for a series A company valued @ 5m. 4 years later that same company has 200x in valuation to $1b and I get 5k more stock units as refereshers over 4 years 'since the value of the company has gone up so much'. The value of my stock is not 6 million, but 600k because of dilution. So even with this very positive case situation, I broke even +/- 100k or 200k compared to big tech co with promotions, but whats worse, I can't sell my stock. The company later dies and all of that stock is only sold for about $40k total in secondaries that happened before the last $1b valuation round.

Considering that is the good case, why would I work as an early employee at a startup? With capital being so abundant and being employee #1-5 at an angel startup, I might as well become a founder and start my own at that point, or join the obvious next big tech co, which was facebook back then.

We also only have so many years to go on startup expeditions, maybe 5 total before we are 50, or more if we are able to fail fast.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#173

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:40 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

Work at startups because you’ll work with people who have risk profiles that are much more likely to generate outsized returns as a group.

This is statistically not true. S&P 500 Index funds have outperformed VC's as a group for any reasonable time period.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#174

Post by peteey » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

alecbenzer wrote: post #113

> The real reason you should consider working at a startup or starting your own: It's not the money I think this is correct, but makes the post's title seem really click-baity. I think expected financial upside is exactly where Big Tech unequivocally wins over startups (esp. joining and not founding), so it seems weird to frame the post around money.

It doesn't seem correct at all. Money is very much a factor.

To prove,

How many people here would show up tomorrow if their company stopped paying them?

How many people would join a startup for less pay without any stock offers?

I suspect the answer to both will be equal to the number polled.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#175

Post by jldugger » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

malisper wrote: post #157

If you want a good reason to not join Google in particular, Google does not train their managers. When I was interviewing with Google, I interviewed around 8 friends of mine that worked or previously worked at Google. Lack of management training was a something that every one of them brought up. Two of them had even been managers at Google and basically said "yeah, we weren't trained". The way it's been described to…

Nobody in tech trains managers. The only difference AFAICT, is that google spreads those underprepared managers across more people. The only place I hear stories of managers with 50 directs is from Google.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#176

Post by dzink » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

garry wrote: post #131

thecleaner wrote: post #12

This vlog is more of a cheap advertisement for the "oh work for a startup it's great" nonsense school. I don't really understand why I would work in an environment where the pay is shit and the issued stocks can be re-classified or diluted or just taken away by lay-offs. Makes no sense.

I started here on Hacker News as a software engineer. I learned that I could build software for others, ship it and release it. I did end up taking the venture path, and now help others on that path. The key here is that magic can be created by people, and I'm not that different than a lot of people on this site. I also got very lucky, and I'm thankful for that. Startups are hard, and most fail, and most startup stoc…

The first time we met, you had just announced Initialized and had hired two people to work for you. I asked one question about it hoping to see if you guys were hiring more and send a resume, and you said something along the lines of: “Yes, one of the perks of raising money is you get to hire your friends”.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#177

Post by keithwhor » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #173

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

Work at startups because you’ll work with people who have risk profiles that are much more likely to generate outsized returns as a group. This is statistically not true. S&P 500 Index funds have outperformed VC's as a group for any reasonable time period.

You’re making this (single startup) v. (single S&P company). That’s not how it works. Prove yourself at being an adept generalist and you’ll, over time, create access to the most ambitious people and companies.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#178

Post by khazhoux » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

Like Garry, I wholeheartedly encourage every engineer to work at a startup for .00x% equity (unless you're employee #1, and you can ask for a whopping 1%). The founders and VCs will have hundreds or thousands times more upside than you (and they'll have preferential shares, etc), but at least you'll be In This Together (in that you're working "together" to try to help the founders+VCs join the Billionaire class -- a noble effort indeed!).

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#179

Post by rsanek » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

garry wrote: post #110

zainamro wrote: post #44

VCs feel the need to constantly remind us that working at a startup is worth our time as a means to fuel the startup workforce. I understand that he was simply sharing an anecdote, but I found the conclusions and headline misleading even verging on dishonest. I've worked at an early stage bay area startup -- hiring progressively got harder and harder because candidates were becoming more aware of the career risks inv…

Yeah, at the end of the post I tried to reference this: You probably shouldn't work at a startup for the money per se. The real value is short cycles with users and being able to make decisions and ship. This is also cautionary for startups. You have to be an actually rewarding place to work, otherwise there is literally no reason to work there.

To me it comes off as a bit contradictory to say "you shouldn't work at a startup for the money" when the title of your post and video prominently feature the "$200 million" figure.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#180

Post by thatsenough » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

Its not pessimism. People should just get to hear both sides, and know that VCs typically offer this advise because, first and foremost, it benefits the VCs.

The VC typically has enough money to be set for life, several times over. They bet on many companies simultaneously to diversify their own risk. Most companies will fail, and the employees will go down with the ship, but the VC only needs a handful of bets to pay out. None of this is the case for the employee, who bets all in on one company.