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Help me ask why you didn't just

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Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#171

Post by marcus_holmes »

d--b wrote: post #158

The problem here is that the author assumes that the person he is addressing is a total moron for not using sshd, so he is afraid that his question is going to be badly taken. Most people when asked “why didn’t you just xxx” would answer in 3 ways: 1. Oh shit, you’re right, I’m such an idiot... oh well... 2. Because yyy 3. I don’t know xxx, can you show me? The issue is that people feel the intention behind your ques…

I think the article directly addressed that "most people" are reasonable, but a minority are not and will take the question as an insult. It's trying to work out a way of phrasing the question so it can't be taken as an insult, even by an unreasonable person.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#172

Post by lordnacho »

I've been in this situation many times before. The way to to it is to not only ask, but suggest a possible reason:

"What's the issue with sshd? Does it not have an option to do x?"

By following with the potential issue, you are not saying "Are you retarded?", either by omission or directly. You are leading the tone of the conversation down the productive path.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#174

Post by rainforest »

luxuryballs wrote: post #129

You’d think this guy works in an adult daycare center, either that or I’m an asshole. Why didn’t you just ask the question and not worry about how it comes across instead of writing an article about it? :P

I think the problem isn't the phrasing, it's asking the question at all.

It's all too easy to confuse PRs as a quick peer review with an opportunity to vicariously work on something by asking questions that you should have asked when pairing.

If you don't trust the engineer, then why let them waste their time getting to the point they're asking for feedback to telegraph your contempt for them and try to "help" them?

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#175

Post by alanfranz »

Framing the question in a proper way is interesting. By the way, I think there's another common pattern, especially in the corporate/enterprise world: the proposed solution is ACTUALLY better and simpler than the super-complex-version that somebody is proposing; but:

- At a certain point, the original problem was forgotten. Maybe the original problem was "execute some commands on N machines". But initially, those machines were a mix of operating systems, some of which would not offer an ssh daemon. And another path was pursued. But, after a certain time, all non-ssh-offering OSes were pulled, but the pursue of a different path remained.

- Technology evolved in the months-or-years while pursuing a certain solution, and the original pursuer either didn't know that, or he would not be ready to abandon his efforts (sunk cost fallacy)

- Sometimes, just looking from outside is a good way to find a good solution.

- Sometimes, just trying to solve a problem for months or years lets the solver to properly frame the problem, and enunciating a problem in a good, concise, comprehensive way goes miles towards finding a solution.

So: sometimes people who ask things that way actually think that the solution is stupid. But they shouldn't think the people trying to solving it are stupid.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#176

Post by carlmr »

My take from personal experience:

Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending:

=> Why didn't you use sshd?

Removing the "you" could make it less personal:

=> Why was sshd not used here?

Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening):

=> Could sshd be used here?

And to further open it up to criticism and add humility (which is important, since sometimes the obvious standard solution doesn't scale/work/apply to the use case):

=> Would there be any tradeoffs using sshd here?

This IMHO is the least-threatening and not too elaborate way to formulate this sentence.

But one thing can make this even less threatening. Don't write in on the code review for everybody to see, tell it to the person 1:1 in private and give them a chance to look good to their peers. The old adage "Praise in public, criticize in private" is still one of the most important things IMHO when relaying criticism.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#177

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

Edman274 wrote: post #41

Here's the suggestion: don't ask! What are you going to do with the information? If you ask and the answers are reasonable , then ... so what? What have you meaningfully learned? You've learned that an existing solution does not completely solve a problem. Now you understand the problem a little better, and you understand the shortcomings or deficiencies of a pre-existing solution a little better, but you're signalli…

> Either understand why the first thing that popped into your head doesn't work without having them tell you why that's the case

I actually like that phrasing. Some thing simple and open-ended, like

"Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is sshd."

And let them talk.

It's generally a true statement, in that it is the first thing that comes to mind, with all the naivete that this implies. And IMHO doesn't unduly pressure the person who has worked with the problem longer.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#178

Post by mettamage »

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

Favoriting your comment here. You just gave 2 "learn within 1 minute social skills" lessons within one HN comment.

There's a lot to unpack here.

1. Your way of analyzing on how it could be less threatening

2. The final answer to it being less threatening

3. Praise in public, criticize in private

I'm normally not a fan of simple sentences, but the sentence of (3) is one I'll keep in mind when I'll start my career.

Thanks!

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#179

Post by grahamlee »

"Can you tell me more about the problem?" before proposing a solution offers the humility lacking in the original question. Any rephrasing of the question "why don't you just X?" still leaves you in the position of being arrogant enough to assume you've come up with a better answer without learning the context, so (to borrow a phrase) why don't you just learn the context?

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#180

Post by silveroriole »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #103

Last year I was on a project where we couldn’t get something to work despite all efforts. Pretty much all managers walked by some weeks in and asked “why don’t you just do X?”. Whenever I heard the J word I pretty much stopped listening and told them “no problem. here is the code. Here is the server. Just do it.”. It’s incredibly disrespectful to walk up to people who have worked on something for months and then you…

I get you... I spent so long hearing “why dont you just [incredibly useless and patronising suggestion based on manager’s knowledge of the code/industry as it was 10 years ago]”, it drove me insane. “Why don’t you just” is ok if someone’s been stuck on something for, say, a day. Weeks or months? You’re definitely missing something that makes the task so hard, and you will infuriate the developer by approaching it as if you know best.
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