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Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

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Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#171

Post by Aeolun »

michannne wrote: post #97
nkrisc wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This method works wonders for corporate tech support. They're pretty used to the "my monitor won't turn on (it's not plugged in)" type users so when you try to tell them you know what's wrong, they assume you're there former type and you have no idea what you're talking about. Instead I very clearly tell them the specific symptoms and relevant information that they would look up anyway. Recently I had a corporate ins…

I do support along with my usual dev work and interface with users daily. I can't count the amount of times I've heard "I'm pretty sure it's because of..." followed by something completely unrelated, along with a stubborn resolve to not try the professional's recommended solution

I think I’m about 50/50 on thinking their solution is absolute bull and being right, and having made a retarded mistake and their solution solving everything.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#172

Post by netcan »

80386 wrote: post #80
netcan wrote: post #10

This is (hopefully not) obnoxiously off-topic... As a Hebrew speaker, I wish the "shibboleth" idiom (which is a good one) was translated, rather than transliterated. laoned idioms are inherently exotic, and this one is worth demystifying It means any choice of word (or pronunciation, in the literal example) that clearly identifies the speaker's group affiliations. A good modern example is "LondonDerry/Derry. This'd b…

> As a Hebrew speaker, I wish the "shibboleth" idiom (which is a good one) was translated, rather than transliterated. laoned idioms are inherently exotic, and this one is worth demystifying Until a few decades ago, it was assumed in educated Protestant society that everyone was familiar with the Bible. So a lot of biblical idioms are still present.

Hmm.

I now just realized that the biblical translators must have chosen to transliterate the word, not translate it.

It's probably because in context its about how the word is pronounced, not meaning. In any case, I guess the idiom would have never taken off with the word "corn."

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#173

Post by nimbius »

notacoward wrote: post #67

I've found that pretending to know someone's profession, or one related to it, is generally a very bad approach. It's easily seen through, at which point you're worse off than before. Instead, what I do with members of other professions is try to impress on them that I do not know their business but respect its complexity and our roles within the scenario. Whether it's a doctor or a plumber or even a computer technic…

Speaking as an automotive mechanic and a tradesman, nothing sounds more despicable than this half-ass attempt to "game" human interaction to save a few precious seconds in your day.

You wouldn't do this with a doctor. You wouldn't do it with a police officer. So why do it with me? Or tech people? Are they somehow less impressive? I mean you are seeking their help. Maybe show some respect.

if you're ever at the garage waiting on a repair, just speak English. Yeah I know my questions are going to be a little basic and repetitive sometimes but they're for my understanding. What sounds like a waste of breath for you is actually helping me to formulate a solution and troubleshoot a problem. Work with me, not around me.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#174

Post by sneak »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #157
sneak wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before you try these “Dangerous Professional” tricks, please just try to be a decent human with the front-line support staff. - they aren’t tricks. - making documentation and taking notes is something decent humans do. - only less-than-decent people are threatened by documentation.

> only less-than-decent people are threatened by documentation This is a rephrase of "only guilty people need to worry about privacy." But: 1. Are you sure you act perfectly above-board at ALL times? You don't occasionally say something that could be misconstrued, lose your temper, etc.? 2. Are you aware of all contractual clauses and laws you may be violating at any given time? Are you able to think about them, in r…

> This is a rephrase of "only guilty people need to worry about privacy."

You're absolutely right. I should have explicitly clarified the implied scope (which seemed obvious to me from the thread): in customer service events between a contractually-bound client and vendor.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#175

Post by scarejunba »

Aeolun wrote: post #170
notacoward wrote: post #67

I've found that pretending to know someone's profession, or one related to it, is generally a very bad approach. It's easily seen through, at which point you're worse off than before. Instead, what I do with members of other professions is try to impress on them that I do not know their business but respect its complexity and our roles within the scenario. Whether it's a doctor or a plumber or even a computer technic…

> Instead I describe as clearly as possible symptoms, timing/frequency, possibly related changes, things I've tried and results I've gotten, etc. What do you do if after all this, they still keep circling the problem?

"Could it be X? I read in the Y that sometimes this happens with it"

If you want to add authority pick Y = Newspaper. If you think the person will respond better to you placing yourself societally lower, say 'online' and weaken your statement with something like "but who knows how true that is" etc.

The objective is to place the thought in their head but keep them believing they're putting the pieces together. You could even try "It's probably not Z, right? Like in that movie". There doesn't have to be a movie, no one will follow up.

This part is hard because you really need to read their reactions and make sure you come off not as a kook hypochondriac but as a bumbling layman who just happened upon the right thing.

Do it wrong and you'll be patronizing and insta-lose. Do it right and you'll get everything you want.

I employ this + being as non-threatening as possible (cheerful, less smart than, less powerful than) + minor groveling ("would you mind doing this anyway, I know you're probably right but it'll make me feel so much better").

I get pretty quick service everywhere, even where other people complain.

In general, though, this is last resort. Usually the fastest way to get good service is to rapidly and clearly comply with orders. Just like when you're debugging an issue, you've got a standard process, other professionals do too and letting them prune their search tree is important. You know that lingering feeling you have where you're like "maybe the DNS server is flaky, naaah it couldn't be"? That's what they're avoiding and giving that to them means you get bucketed it into "smooth interaction" which is superior to anything else because in the end, nothing works better than someone wanting to help you.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#176

Post by sneak »

techsupporter wrote: post #167
sneak wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before you try these “Dangerous Professional” tricks, please just try to be a decent human with the front-line support staff. - they aren’t tricks. - making documentation and taking notes is something decent humans do. - only less-than-decent people are threatened by documentation.

As someone who has worked in support and customer-facing roles for a very long time, I am not threatened by documentation. I am threatened by out-of-context quotes, twisting of what I said or wrote, and what someone who is "just taking notes" is implying by that statement. In my experience, people who play this card have an almost-certain probability of using things like strategic ellipses or partial quotes against m…

Should customers also behave this way when the vendor's IVR system notifies them in the first few seconds of the call that the exact content of the call is going to be recorded by the vendor (presumably for all time)?

It cuts both ways.

EDIT: Just noticed the call recording angle is already discussed up-thread a bit; apologies for the dupe.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#178

Post by threwawasy1228 »

driverdan wrote: post #123
notacoward wrote: post #67

I've found that pretending to know someone's profession, or one related to it, is generally a very bad approach. It's easily seen through, at which point you're worse off than before. Instead, what I do with members of other professions is try to impress on them that I do not know their business but respect its complexity and our roles within the scenario. Whether it's a doctor or a plumber or even a computer technic…

I agree with your general sentiment but having basic knowledge and knowing some terminology can get you farther. It's like going to a foreign country and making an effort to speak their language. Even if you're bad at it and end up having a conversation in your native language they'll respect you for the effort. You wouldn't see a doctor and pretend to also be one but understanding some basic terminology and diagnost…

I kind of take issue with the fact that this works, maybe not in your foreign language example but in general. I shouldn't have to learn the terminology of HVAC services or plumbing services or any service that I have no intention of learning more about to get better service. Every customer regardless of their knowledge of the service they are using should get a competent response without having to learn anything about that profession. That is the whole point of having a professional there working for you afterall.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#179

Post by sneak »

sujNansnam wrote: post #161
sneak wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not your fault that the listener assumed you were divorced; you implied it (accidentally) but did not state it. You were not untruthful-what you said was literally and exactly correct. The assumptions made by a listener as a result of intentionally limited data are not your responsibility in any way, indeed even if you were able to predict them with any reasonable level of accuracy, which you are not. I have an…

You may feel this way, but the society you live in does not. http://www.glottopedia.org/index.php/Gricean_maxims I find it unlikely that you really abide by this stated disregard of implicit assumptions - it would make communication impossible. The amount of information required to convey even basic facts is encyclopedic if you and your conversational partner don’t make use of assumptions about what the other already…

And indeed, reasonable people can disagree on the extent of what is safe to assume and what is not, and can discuss the nature of their belief in the reasonability of those various levels of assumption.

It turns out that if you abide by those linked rules, casual friendly discussions (things that are nonessential, for the most part) are pretty much ruled out. I find myself more often communicating with people who I have no explicit business or goal with, in social settings, and abiding by rules for cooperation on a team/task would make me a very boring person to speak to, indeed.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#180

Post by mnm1 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #81

Many of these are equivalent to demanding to speak to the manager in order to get what you want. That can backfire quickly if you’re not careful. > Present as if you are collecting a paper trail. Prominent indicia of this include notebooks, organized files, and repeatedly asking for specific names, dates, and citations for authority “for my notes.” I worked at a smaller company where any semi-threatening support requ…

That's just shitty customer service. Your front line guys are too incompetent to solve the problem and too stupid to offer one of the remedies you described so the customer escalates the problem, probably after multiple tries, and now gets even worse customer service. Yeah that company should be afraid of people collecting data and I hope the people that collect it do use it in a legal case or post it on the internet as that is exactly what a shitty company like that deserves. How can you ask people not to escalate when your customer service is such shit?
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