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Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

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Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#171

Post by vacri »

patrickgzill wrote: post #159
zmmmmm wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Metering only makes sense if the costs vary with usage ... in the case of DSL, the vast majority of the cost is the cost of maintaining the copper pair to your house, and that cost largely doesn't change, regardless of usage. That's a somewhat naive view of things. It only works if all the upstream equipment has infinite capacity. If you (and others like you) use 275GB instead of 10GB then it absolutely does cause…

It is not at all naive, it is very accurate. After the connection hits the DSLAM it goes onto fiber, which starts at 1 Gbps capacity and goes up to either 40Gbps or 100Gbps per port. Only in the smallest markets would they use a T3/DS3 connection. Actual bandwidth costs for 200GB (which is about 1Mbps) over the course of a month are about $1 USD in almost any major US city. Even assuming 4x the cost for Canada's smal…

Sounds like a bargain. There's a business opportunity for you!

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#172

Post by westajay »

jacquesm wrote: post #105
sjs wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This situation really sucks, but remember that those of us with Telus or Shaw don't have anything to complain about at the moment so you aren't hearing about all of us on 10-25 mbps lines, with 50-200 GB soft caps that aren't enforced. I'm torrenting up a storm 24/7, and regularly download shows and movies on iTunes and Netflix, stream Grooveshark at home and on my phone. I don't even hear anything if I use 2x my mon…

Shaw is cable right?

They also operate their own internet backbone and sell access to corporate clients.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#174

Post by junkbit »

vacri wrote: post #170
acangiano wrote: post #24

I'll provide one data point of how this affects Canadian internet users. I currently have no caps with TekSavvy and pay $39 a month. Starting from March 1st, I will pay $31.95/mo with a 25 GB cap. Any gigabyte over the limit will cost about 2 bucks. Now, you can buy a block at discounted prices. According to TekSavvy, based on my internet usage, I will need to buy at least a 275 GB extra block. Believe it or not, I d…

I've always thought it funny that people who use 250+GB of data class themselves as 'not heavy internet users'. "I don't torrent" != light internet use. What do most people torrent? Movies and TV. And yet there you are doing lots of HD video while claiming you're not a heavy user ("I don't torrent", "I simply..."). Out of curiosity, what level of bandwidth usage do you think quantifies a heavy user?

Cheap hard disks have grown faster than the last mile of internet connections over the years, creating a bottleneck. I think people's expectations are tied to the large disks and the files that they hold.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#175

Post by teamonkey »

gyom wrote: post #111
neonfunk wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with metering; I think it's the only fair measure. Granted, the metering you describe sounds atrocious, and there'll probably be a long messy transition to the point where our internet bill is more like our electric bill. But imagine this: on mobile networks, instead of voice minutes, text messages, data caps, fees for tethering, and every other scheme the Telcos are concocting right now (with regard…

I also agree with metering if we're charged prices that we consider reasonable (defined by the prices that most people are paying elsewhere in the world). I'd like to pay for internet like I pay for electricity. We pay by the kW*h and that's it. I think it'd be nice to pay a higher rate for electricity / internet during the day if it meant that we'd pay a lower rate during the night. I keep hearing about how european…

Yes.

I came to Canada from the UK and I reckon it's about 50% more expensive for DSL/cable data over here, but faster speeds are more common (in the cities at least). Usage caps are not unusual with the larger ISPs in the UK, nor is traffic shaping/blocking, but at least the carriers are obliged by law to resell to other ISPs at a reasonable rate.

Mobile phones are, IMO, in a completely different ballpark though. Canada is literally years behind Europe and the same companies that are monopolising the landline networks have been abusing their mobile monopoly for years. For the end user, the phones are old, the networks creaky, the contracts long and the cost astronomical.

A mobile contract costs 2-3 times what it would in the UK for less: Caller ID, voicemail etc. all come as standard in the UK, I don't know of any exceptions. Not only that, but a contract locks you in for 2-3 times as long and the phones still cost more.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#176

Post by zacharycohn »

petsos wrote: post #164
zacharycohn wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could look at nothing but google ads for a month and your bandwidth wouldn't be near what it'd be if you had just watched a single HD movie over netflix.

Picking the two extremes does not prove your point. A lot of people are pissed with ads right now. Imagine if they would have to pay for them too (even pennies).

I wasn't picking extremes, simply pointing out how little ads would effect you.

Besides, doesn't Adblock work client-side? You'd still download and pay for the ads, you just wouldn't see them.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#177

Post by nikster »

vacri wrote: post #171
patrickgzill wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not at all naive, it is very accurate. After the connection hits the DSLAM it goes onto fiber, which starts at 1 Gbps capacity and goes up to either 40Gbps or 100Gbps per port. Only in the smallest markets would they use a T3/DS3 connection. Actual bandwidth costs for 200GB (which is about 1Mbps) over the course of a month are about $1 USD in almost any major US city. Even assuming 4x the cost for Canada's smal…

Sounds like a bargain. There's a business opportunity for you!

I think this hits on the real, underlying issue: There is no free market competition in internet access. In the case of Canada it appears one state-owned company owns all the physical lines, and that company is starting to meter access.

So, a sensible approach by the government would be to review the actual access costs - whether it's $2 / 100GB or some other figure - then fix the price at that level. Review it every year. Fair for all. I am sure the guy using 275GB/month wouldn't mind paying $4 for it.

Unlimited access is unrealistic, as is gauging the public for 10x the fair value _when you're a monopolist_.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#178

Post by jarek »

vacri wrote: post #169
lsc wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metering only makes sense if the costs vary with usage. In the case of DSL, the vast majority of the cost is the cost of maintaining the copper pair to your house, and that cost largely doesn't change, regardless of usage. Now, if the line from the CO (where the DSL terminates) to the internet was a significant bit of the cost, I'd agree with you. But my understanding is that the line from the CO to the 'net is a ver…

"In the case of DSL, the vast majority of the cost is the cost of maintaining the copper pair to your house, and that cost largely doesn't change, regardless of usage." Pure nonsense. ISPs have to pay data by volume to upstream providers.

Which absolutely does not rule out the possibility that the data cost is much smaller than the cost of maintaining the copper. Do you have the numbers?

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#179

Post by nikster »

vacri wrote: post #169
lsc wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metering only makes sense if the costs vary with usage. In the case of DSL, the vast majority of the cost is the cost of maintaining the copper pair to your house, and that cost largely doesn't change, regardless of usage. Now, if the line from the CO (where the DSL terminates) to the internet was a significant bit of the cost, I'd agree with you. But my understanding is that the line from the CO to the 'net is a ver…

"In the case of DSL, the vast majority of the cost is the cost of maintaining the copper pair to your house, and that cost largely doesn't change, regardless of usage." Pure nonsense. ISPs have to pay data by volume to upstream providers.

"ISPs have to pay data by volume to upstream providers"

Yes, they do. The question is how much. Chances are it's nowhere near $2.... charging whatever you want is fair game in a free market, but not when you're a monopolist.

Re: Canadians Just Became World's Biggest Internet Losers.

#180

Post by uytrtyui »

noarchy wrote: post #67
uytrtyui wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>such as the cell phone market Not in Canada - same two monopoly suppliers. Means you get the iPhone 18months after the US, kindle 2 years later, still can't get skypein etc.

Unless something has changed, you still cannot get a Kindle from amazon.ca. Instead, you've got to go through amazon.com, and there are restrictions on the books that you can buy, if you do it in Canada.

Even buying it from the US - it only just got wireless downloads in Canada
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