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Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

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Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#171

Post by dominotw »

salawat wrote: post #30
curiousgal wrote: post #10

She got six weeks instead of eight. How dare they. She could've applied for more days based on her psychological state. Also how dare they not pay her commissions earned by her team while she was away. I think the tone is all wrong here. Economically, it makes sense to "discriminate" against pregnant women, so the discussion should be more "Here's why you shouldn't do it" and less "How dare you do it!". Just my $0.02…

Don't much care your gender, but I think that viewpoint is a bit deranged, with all due respect. There are things you don't do, whether it makes fiscal sense or not. You think very carefully about accepting it as a possibility, because doing so drops the standard for everyone else around you. If for some reason you do, you especially don't do it unilaterally without getting buy-in from the other party out of respect.…

> Shouldering some extra burden when someone else is suffering from a much greater one foisted through no fault of their own is just how it should work.

If I am voluntarily bearing the burden I would like bear it for someone who is suffering the most in the world. Bearing it for someone who happened to apply for job at the same company doesn't make any sense. If you have food on your plate and live in a first world country on a 6 week paid bereavment leave then you aren't even in the vicinity of suffering, like not even close.

Only framing I can think of is that I would like to have privileges applied to me if same thing happens to me. This is much more selfish and sensible way to look at it.

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#172

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #149
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thought exactly. Honestly, I think Informatica should consider firing their entire HR department. As you say, the entire point of HR is risk management. I hear loads of time on HN about how you can never trust HR because they are only there to protect the company, and while that's true, a lot of the time good HR people realize that the employees' needs and the long-term needs of company are aligned, so they should…

“My thought exactly. Honestly, I think Informatica should consider firing their entire HR department.” Why? They changed the policy over a year ago to 16 weeks of paid leave, and included pregnancy recovery in that. Is that not good enough?

First, yes, perhaps I was using a bit of hyperbole.

But the point still stands that my response had really nothing to do with whether 8 weeks or 6 weeks or 16 weeks is "good enough". When someone has a baby, and that baby dies, it doesn't take much to realize you don't nickel and dime that employee over a couple of weeks of leave. You send flowers and a heartfelt letter.

The job of HR is specifically to lower employee related risk for a company, and is should be obvious that sending an email to the effect of "well, since your baby died, you'll be ready to come back to work sooner!" would in fact raise multiple risks for the company.

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#173

Post by XorNot »

peterangular wrote: post #132
dlp211 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have nothing (to my knowledge) but my opinion on this, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that a majority of people just lack empathy.

I'm speaking anecdotally but would 100% posit that this is true. One of the biggest things I'm learning as an adult in a capitalistic society is that empathy is an anti-pattern to how most medium-to-larger sized corporations operate. Recently I've really come to fully accept that HR at most companies is not there for the employee (regardless of how they internally brand), vs. it being a compliance department and a ri…

No but in terms of risk management HR is taking a huge gamble that a bunch of people getting recruiter offers aren't going to go "you know what, screw this place" and leave.

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#174

Post by fghorow »

cdolan wrote: post #162
0x29A- wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As father to the best 8 month young man in the world I can't imagine even for a moment what that is like. I never ever comment on hacker news, I just wanted to say I'm deeply sorry anyone here may have lost their child.

On Oct 4 a friend (code name “Paul”) and I were at a viewing for our 25 year old friend who passed from falling while hiking. “Paul” and I both have boys born this year (5-6 months old). After attending the viewing, we both noted how sad it was to watch the father and mother in such a terrible situation. The worst for any parent, and somehow slightly more understandable now that we are parents ourselves. That night h…

That is utterly tragic.

Please be good to "Paul", and do not expect him to "get over it" anytime soon. It doesn't work like that in my experience.

If he and family are ready for it, perhaps mentioning The Compassionate Friends -- along with its link I've posted elsewhere in this page -- might be gratefully received?

My local chapter is wonderful, and has kept my wife and I as sane as we are after losing our (only) son.

May peace be unto "Paul".

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#175

Post by School-Cotton »

fghorow wrote: post #11
ttul wrote: post #8

I had a baby that died. It was an excruciating experience and nobody around us knew what to do or say. From personal experience I can say it should be treated as a grave mental health issue and companies should be forced to provide a great deal of leave to both parents. Whether leave is paid or unpaid, this should be treated in the same way as any disability or health related leave. IMHO it would be cheap for compani…

I am also a bereaved parent, although my child died at age 25. I utterly agree about the grave mental health issues being caused in the parents. May peace be unto you. (Ping me if you want info about an organization called "The Compassionate Friends" specifically for bereaved parents.)

FYI, Hacker News doesn’t have a DM feature.

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#176

Post by jacquesm »

rayiner wrote: post #130
_zoltan_ wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and you think that's normal?

Yes? Its routine in traditional societies for non-parents to raise children. The idea of "intensive mothering," where mom is stuck taking care of the baby alone for months or years, is a blip in the history of time. (In Europe, lengthy maternity leaves are also financially costly for mothers. While European countries generally offer "paid" leave, the salary caps are pretty low. France offers up to $650 per week. The…

"Under the current system, France offers employed mothers 16 weeks’ paid congé maternité (three to six before the expected date of birth and 10 to 13 after). The total allowance increases to 34 weeks for twins and 46 for triplets.

Women receive 26 weeks, instead of 16, from their third child. They can choose to return to work sooner, but must take a minimum of eight weeks, including six after the birth, to receive pay.

The leave is paid at 100 per cent of salary, capped at €540 net per week. This is the equivalent of a €2,885 gross monthly salary."

2855 Euro gross is fairly normal in France for the bulk of the people who would need this assistance. The $650 is net take home, not gross. You also have to take into account that in France lots of things that are very costly in the USA are free and so you can't directly compare the compensation for paid maternity leave with the income of the median woman in America, that's apples and oranges. You should compare it with either the median pay in France or with the average paid leave compensation in the USA.

Finally, there is the duration of the leave to take into account 16 weeks is going on three months, which compared to the 6 weeks (or less) of maternity leave in the United States is pretty generous.

Is it costly for mothers? Well, that depends on the income of the mother before the maternity leave. But France has figure out - rightly - that if you earn lots of money that you need this assistance likely a lot less than if you do not. And so there is a cap.

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#177

Post by perl4ever »

vecplane wrote: post #125
perl4ever wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obvious answer I didn't see from others: Because hypothetical employers who are actually benevolent are forced to compete with those who aren't, absent regulation? AKA a "race to the bottom". When corporations send me stuff in writing every day saying that they can only do the minimum mandated by law in respect to any ethical matter, I have to wonder whose opinion it really represents to say that minimum standards ar…

Competition goes both ways: employers that offer better benefits will attract more applicants, so they can higher higher quality employees.

People have to make decisions based on the most likely scenarios. Big companies can take advantage of the unlikely scenarios, for employees or for customers, because they average across large numbers of people. This is like a memory leak that defeats competition; it's not a flaw in the rationality of either party, but it is a real problem absent good regulation.

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#178

Post by xenihn »

jacquesm wrote: post #59
xenihn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I mean I can't think of many things that would hurt team morale and hiring reputation more than treating a young female employee like shit just because she got pregnant Anecdote time based on my experience in SV and tech, and second-hand anecdotes from friends in NYC finance: Curiousgal's viewpoint isn't uncommon. The harshest judgment in these situations comes from other women. Men are generally more sympathetic, a…

> I would not be surprised if this decision came all the way down from a female manager, with men lower on the chain voicing opposition and being overruled. That's very speculative and likely not true.

>That's very speculative and likely not true.

It is obviously speculation since I don't work there or know anyone who does, but it is based on what I've personally seen and heard. It's kind of funny that you find it so hard to believe, though. I don't expect to get an actual answer from you in regards to why that is, but I'd still like to ask you why you think it's unlikely.

This was a decision made by an HR manager. If you are not familiar with the gender imbalance for HR in the United States, it is overwhelmingly women (both in and out of tech).

You can form a rough and incomplete org chart by glancing through LinkedIn, if you want some actual data that will assist you in forming an educated guess in regards to who was potentially involved with this decision.

If we are assuming that all of the people involved were acting rationally and in their best interests (and there is no reason not to), then I think it is naive to think that this did not make it all the way to the CHRO.

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#179

Post by esotericn »

Isn't this a fairly clear cut case of constructive dismissal?

Asking someone to return to knowledge work after one of the most traumatic events of their life is tantamount to firing them. They're not going in, if they do go in they're going to be an emotional wreck.

Re: Engineer Says Software Firm Cut Her Maternity Leave Short After Her Baby Died

#180

Post by eloff »

Please excuse my insensitivity for Paul, but hearing the story I wonder if the baby suffocated in its sleep, e.g. By rolling into a bad position as is not uncommon in young infants. Is it possible to tell the difference? Don't ever intimate such a thing to Paul of course. The only thing worse than losing a child is losing a child to something preventable by the parent.
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