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Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

perell.com

171–180 of 234 posts

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#171
post #74
post #2

> Why did Boeing buy McDonnell-Douglas? Because the airplane manufacturing industry is consolidating, and Boeing is pursuing profit at the expense of human lives. Was it really necessary to add the second part to explain why the merger occured? 'industry is consolidating' seems reason enough. The mixing of explanation with moralism in every sentence is grating. Put the moralism and ethics in it's own paragraph so we…

>The mixing of explanation with moralism in every sentence is grating. At the fundamental level, Engineering is a social/ethical process, not a technical one. Yes, engineers tend to have technical skills but when you use those skills to design a bridge you must always keep society (the users of your product) at the forefront of your mind. What separates engineers from "skilled people" is professional ethics. An engin…

I know zero about engineering (or even ethics, heh) but this comment seems plausible and well-reasoned enough to not be anonymously greyed out, which seems a bit tattle-tale-y , to be honest.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the advent of powered flight controls, they've been shaped to give desired handling characteristics. For example, in the 70's control forces were lightened considerably to accommodate female pilots, though many were concerned this would lead to overcontrolling the airplane by the male pilots. Human factors design is nowhere near easy or settled science, not in iphone design nor in flight controls design.

>Human factors design is nowhere near easy or settled science, not in iphone design nor in flight controls design. Given. The issue I keep coming back to is the flawed regard for human factors in MCAS. They paid enough attention to squeak by the artificial feel, but then completely ignored the fact that a pilot can't react or stay ahead of something on a plane that no one tells them even exists. Then when it became e…

Boeing relied on the pilot noticing runaway stabilizer and doing what they're trained to do on runaway stabilizer - turn off the trim motors.

The first of the 3 sets of pilots did this, and landed without incident.

The next set overrode MCAS successfully 25 times, inexplicably did not turn off the trim, did not override it the last time, and crashed.

The last set successfully countered MCAS twice, then turned off the trim. They did not follow the directions on Boeing's Flight Crew Operations Manual Bulletin: "Uncommanded Nose-Down Stabilizer Trim Due to Erroneous Angle Of Attack During Manual Flight Only", which the FAA turned into a mandatory emergency airworthiness directive.

-- Aviation Week, Aug 19, 2019

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're referring to Tesla's Autopilot, Tesla's legal stance has always been very clear - you are driving the car and it is your responsibility to pay attention. Now their marketing is very different and confuses people and I can understand why people would think otherwise, but Tesla has never waivered from "it's your fault, not ours" when something goes wrong. So yes, if you fall asleep or don't have your hands on…

I don’t care what is the name of your company’s department that lied to me is. Matter of fact, I don’t even care how your company is subdivided. Could be a fiefdom for all I care. But if you sell me something saying it does “X” I bloody expect “X” to mean “X” and not “not X”. But that just me, I’m old fashioned that way.

I'd love for Tesla to be transparent about this as well, but the onus is on the driver to understand how their car works. Maybe we need higher standards for getting a driver's license.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#174
post #3

Has anyone considered that the MCAS bug was just simply nasty and difficult to detect in their simulator? It’s easy to look back with retrospect and make sweeping judgements about the entire company and the FAA. But fundamentally this was all over, as the author mentions, a single software bug and a lack of backup sensors to offset the risk. In addition it was the technical pilots who asked for the stick to be harder…

It also relied on a the pilot as a critical control - which is why there was no real automated backup or redundancy. Not unreasonable, doing stab trim cutout is a memory item for most operating manuals - pilots were already the circuit breaker for other stab trim issues. Automation working - great. Maintenance failures? Provide error messages (which occured here). Maintenance issues not resolved and automation misbeh…

As Sullenberger said in his NYT reply to Langewiesche, blaming the pilots is out of line. I don't see anyone blaming that CHP officer who died in one of those unintentionally accelerated Toyotas because he in his panic didn't think to shut off the engine maybe for fear of losing power steering or most of the brake boost?

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#175
post #54
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different kinds of outsourcing. One is where a subcontractor has an existing and superior product, which incurs integration cost, but results in a superior product. The other is exporting a core competence to an inexperienced subcontractor for less cost, which incurs training costs, integration costs, loss of intellectual capital, logistics loss, and results in an inferior product.

> which incurs training costs, integration costs, loss of intellectual capital, logistics loss, and results in an inferior product What I'm arguing is that, in order to effectively outsource, one must get good at the so-referred training and integration costs, while hedging against logistics issues. Otherwise you will get, as you prophesy, an inferior product. But I'm not convinced that's inevitable. Of note, keeping…

> What I'm arguing is that, in order to effectively outsource, one must get good at the so-referred training and integration costs, while hedging against logistics issues

I think by now we have demonstrated that this is false, no? In the 1960s, it was a popular idea (especially among managers) to assume that a company can have a core competency of "management" rather than making products or services. If true, such a core competency would mean

1) You can take a great manager at an Ice Cream making company and move him over to an Aerospace company and he'd still be a great manager.

2) Rather than being facilitators who helped to coordinate talented people, managers had their own talent at "managing" and so you can pay them the kind of superstar wages that were previously paid to superstar performers.

3) The above two skills could be efficiently measured and identified to allow scaling them to a large organization.

This idea was obviously very popular, and so a business structure called the "conglomerate" arose where one huge company would buy and own many different smaller companies all with completely different product lines, because the competitive advantage of the conglomerate was viewed to be "managing" rather than producing, and thus the superior managers would improve margins at pretty much anything they were put in charge of.

But unfortunately what ended up happening was that the conglomerates underperformed. There are still some conglomerate hold outs, like Berkshire Hathaway, but everyone knows that this is because of Buffet's investment acumen, not because Berkshire has a stable of excellent managers. Perhaps there is such a thing as pure "management" skill, rather than say, "Engineering Management", but if such a skill exists, it's sufficiently difficult to measure and/or replicate from one product area to another that none of the businesses who thought they had this skill as a core competency actually had it. This remains the case today -- there are many well managed companies, and many talented managers, but 'management' has never been and cannot be a core competency of any firm.

So this idea that Boeing can shed its core competency from building planes and replace it with a "coordination" core competency is a rehash of the conglomerate dream with the same disastrous outcomes, and many people who saw what Boeing was doing knew exactly what this would lead to.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#176
post #44

Note two contradictory popular trends: 1. AI is going to replace cheap labor 2. Engineering companies are outsourcing because of cheap labor The reality is that trend #2 is orders of magnitude larger. Any reversal of that by ‘AI’ would be the biggest jobs boom in decades for western nations, and according to this article, would increase quality and therefore trade balance as well. The other reality is that manufactur…

Those aren't contradictory at all. You could argue they're not even related because the labor in each situation is different. Even if they were the same, you could still have a situation where some engineering jobs go to cheap labor and some to AI so even on its face its not a contradictory.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t care what is the name of your company’s department that lied to me is. Matter of fact, I don’t even care how your company is subdivided. Could be a fiefdom for all I care. But if you sell me something saying it does “X” I bloody expect “X” to mean “X” and not “not X”. But that just me, I’m old fashioned that way.

I'd love for Tesla to be transparent about this as well, but the onus is on the driver to understand how their car works. Maybe we need higher standards for getting a driver's license.

Why does Tesla get a pass in terms of pitching that their system is something that it isn't except in the obligatory fine print?

Hell, both Boeing and Tesla can be said to have indulged in the same sin: not accurately communicating the nature and capabilities of their product to the end user

Taking the viewpoint that caveat emptor absolves the manufacturer of any complicity in mass producing and delivering for use dangerous systems without clearly communicating the underlying implementation details to a reasonable operator is just beyond naieve to the point of asking bad actors to take these types of risks in the least responsible way possible. In fact, the only reason Boeing is getting slammed so hard and Tesla isn't is entirely due to extra regulatory burden that aircraft manufacturers have to deal with that automotive don't.

Now, I personally take the onus of understanding my vehicle seriously, but not everyone does, and nevertheless, they still must be able to drive. Therefore I personally hold manufacturer's responsible for being good corporate citizens and not indulging in deceptive practices.

Not that that gets me or anyone else anywhere. It's the principle of the thing though.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t care what is the name of your company’s department that lied to me is. Matter of fact, I don’t even care how your company is subdivided. Could be a fiefdom for all I care. But if you sell me something saying it does “X” I bloody expect “X” to mean “X” and not “not X”. But that just me, I’m old fashioned that way.

I'd love for Tesla to be transparent about this as well, but the onus is on the driver to understand how their car works. Maybe we need higher standards for getting a driver's license.

“Onus” is an exclusive term. It’s on one party, or another.

Onus does not apply to the safety of consumer products. For example, it is the responsibility of an automobile owner to drive a car with brakes in good working condition. Period.

But it is also the responsibility of an automobile manufacturer to issue a recall and fix faulty brakes in a car they sell.

It’s not an either-or. We don’t say, “Because the onus is on the driver to drive a safe vehicle, there is no fault to be laid at the manufacturer’s door. Caveat emptor.” We hold both parties responsible to some degree or other.

In sum, yes, drivers are supposed to know the limitations of their equipment and operate it responsibly. But also yes, manufacturers have responsibilities around the safety of the hardware and software they sell to people to operate as motor vehicles.

The driver’s responsibility does not absolve the manufacturer of its responsibilities.

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#179
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/This accident/These accidents/ As you'll find in this article below, Boeing specifically removed the yoke-back function, which is the natural pilot input to nose up the plane. They also specifically for the MAX removed the separate switch for automatic stab trim assistance, so you have to turn off the motorized function entirely to turn off automated inputs including MCAS. The Lion Air crew could be heard on the ra…

Stab trim cutout has been the response item for a long time. Before the stab trim was turned on again the plane was climbing. "unstoppable MCAS" * Leave stab trim cut * Hold electric trim up * Control airspeed * etc... AoA senor is not a single point of failure. The 737 is not a fully automatic / flight protected plane. ie, the plane will continue flying with very little sensor input at all - you can even dispatch wi…

Thank goodness it's so safe! I am glad we are only talking about theoretical crazy combinations of events that can lead to a crash...

You brought up faulty replacement parts yourself as a contributing cause, but when challenged you switch to methods to stop the unstoppable, undocumented MCAS. To which faulty part were you referring? The unimportant, non-SPOF AOA sensor?

Re: Boeing Engineers Lost Control of the Company

#180
post #44

Note two contradictory popular trends: 1. AI is going to replace cheap labor 2. Engineering companies are outsourcing because of cheap labor The reality is that trend #2 is orders of magnitude larger. Any reversal of that by ‘AI’ would be the biggest jobs boom in decades for western nations, and according to this article, would increase quality and therefore trade balance as well. The other reality is that manufactur…

Unless you look at long term focused companies like Amazon, which is creating all kinds of value without bowing down to short term market analysts. Had Boeing looked beyond the immediate future and planned to upgrade the 737 frame, or make a new one so it could support the much larger engines, they wouldn't be in this situation. But short term costs and profits, outsourcing and negligence is running the company. Brea…

Amazon is a case of purposely cultivating long-term investors and analysts. Somehow they made a case that their intangible NPV is much larger than other companies with similar profits. However, history indicates that a CFO will soon take over, start outsourcing, and they will be more profitable, but their long-term investors will sell to short-term investors and give them short-term valuations (lower NPV).
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