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Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

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Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#171

Post by black_puppydog »

Spivak wrote: post #154
black_puppydog wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can even go along your last point. But it's a different argument to say "going through google is more efficient" or to say "you can't not go through google". Frankly, they're using their market dominant position to force free developers into a distribution model that serves them as the payment processor. I'd not go so far as to argue those are separate businesses, but it's really a blatant abuse of their power. Arg…

Why is it an abuse of their power? Google and Apple are essentially saying that if you use their store as a sales funnel then they take a 30% cut, and they enforce that by being the sole payment processor on the store. Basically Google and Apple both know that people will make more money by listing in their stores and taking a 30% cut than not listing at all.

1. most open source software is not even close to breaking even via donations. so "making more money" really is a misleading way to portrait the situation. 2. I hope we can agree that "if you use their store as a sales funnel then they take a 30% cut" is at least a use of their power. The fact that there's no recourse, no (practical) competition for the distribution, and that they're not acting in agreement with their "official" stance on free-as-in-beer or free-as-in-speech software makes it an abuse in my book. The thing is, they don't officially say "we only host apps that make us money, not at all. They say they're just platforms, facilitating exchange, blabla. Also, see point 1: "sales funnel" for projects that maybe (!) manage to break even on their hosting costs is not the right term to use here.

This is an old claim by now, but these platforms matter a lot today, and since we only have two of them, and they are not in direct competition (users cannot switch at will) they really should be treated as the monopoly infrastructure that they are. What that means concretely is subject to negotiation within society. In my opinion blackmailing the devs of an application that is essentially written and maintained as a service to the public, for free, by volunteers, is a shit move to say the least.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#172

Post by mimi89999 »

baxtr wrote: post #161
djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

“Totally broken implementation” is very close to BS, at least strongly exaggerated. They’re both highly successful distribution models. Of course, every system has downsides. You’re free not to participate

Really? It's basically impossible to distribute apps for iOS outside the AppStore and very difficult (all security, warranty warnings, settings, etc.) to distribute them outside the PlayStore.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#173

Post by [deleted] »

kyle-rb wrote: post #162
djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

Doesn't F-droid (and other stores) count as a '3rd party repository'?

[deleted]

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#174

Post by kees99 »

kyle-rb wrote: post #162
djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

Doesn't F-droid (and other stores) count as a '3rd party repository'?

According to [0]:

  F-Droid is both a repository of verified
  free software Android apps as well as a
  whole "app store kit"
F-Droid also allows to source multiple repositories within one app. [1]

[0] https://f-droid.org/wiki/

[1] https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/Known_Repositories

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#175

Post by klagermkii »

baxtr wrote: post #161
djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

“Totally broken implementation” is very close to BS, at least strongly exaggerated. They’re both highly successful distribution models. Of course, every system has downsides. You’re free not to participate

This might be a fine answer to dealing with a commodity product in a market with strong competition, but a terrible one for any system with limited choice and an extremely strong network effect.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#176

Post by Magnets »

esotericn wrote: post #123
em-bee wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this exactly is how the world works. if you receive money, wherever it comes from, in more and more countries it must be taxed as income. if you want it tax free, you must prove that you are eligible to do so. the question is whether or not it is right for google to act as a gatekeeper here. i think not.

Gifts are trivially tax free in the UK excepting cases of Inheritance Tax whereby someone pretends to 'gift' an inheritance before dying instead of having it taxed normally. It would surprise me if that were not true globally. A donation is definitionally a gift. If it's not due to some legal wankery, rename it, doesn't matter.

You can't just freely receive donations and not pay any tax. There is definitely an argument that you are donating to ensure future development of the software, essentially quid pro quo.

Edit: Wireguard literally make that case while soliciting donations

>We're extremely grateful for all donations, which enable us to continue developing WireGuard as free open source software. We are happy to receive donations from interested companies who would like to see WireGuard development continue and thrive, as well as individual donations from folks who would simply like to say "thanks".

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#177

Post by whalesalad »

djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

Your analogy is certainly interesting... but expecting everyone to want or know how to look under the hood of their car is a little delusional. Most people don’t even know or care to check their oil. They drive from A to B and only take their car in for service when a light is illuminated on the dash or if it’s making a funny noise.

Personally, I do all my own maintenance and love to look under my hood. My wife? She’d drive a car until it was devoid of oil or coolant and the block seized up without even batting an eye lash. I’m not passing judgement here, just offering a more realistic viewpoint.

The same is true for users of apps. There’s a reason the stores have grown to be so successful, and a reason the Google store is evolving to be more and more like Apple’s.

I don’t think that they are perfect, but I also would never consider the open source package systems to be perfect either. Everything has a trade off, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#179

Post by lovelearning »

Steltek wrote: post #169
djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

Don't conflate Apple's monopoly with Google's store. Anyone can go install F-Droid or Amazon or whatever on their Android phone. The only thing stopping people is satisfaction with the status quo and/or ignorance. However, Apple totally rules their walled garden, with some added gross exploitation to boot (recent "Sherlocking" story for Luna Display).

Android/Google don't make it easy though. Installing an APK requires a security setting change. Search results for "install f-droid on android" on google are very unhelpful for a general user compared to search results from DDG or Bing.

Re: Open-source apps removed from Google Play Store due to donation links

#180

Post by Santosh83 »

Steltek wrote: post #169
djsumdog wrote: post #138

The Apple/Play stores are essentially a totally broken implementation of something that had existed for over a decade before: package repositories. It's embraced and extended Linux/BSD package/ports trees, except without things like the ability to add a 3rd party repository with other authors signing keys, pin certain versions, etc. https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/#packag... We could go on about…

Don't conflate Apple's monopoly with Google's store. Anyone can go install F-Droid or Amazon or whatever on their Android phone. The only thing stopping people is satisfaction with the status quo and/or ignorance. However, Apple totally rules their walled garden, with some added gross exploitation to boot (recent "Sherlocking" story for Luna Display).

This is one aspect and admittedly Android is better than Apple, but the other aspect (and more fundamental) is the ability to gain root on the system and do whatever you wish, and here both Google and Android (in the former case if not Google themselves then all the 3rd party Android vendors) lock down their devices. Rooting through exploits is not an acceptable solution.
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