When you're aware someone is applying this shit to conversations you're involved in, I honestly can't think of something more frustrating right now. Also, it's a cult. Like, actual cult. Marshall Rosenberg was a crazy person.
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Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
171–180 of 355 posts
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#172Nonviolent communication comes up on HN every few months and it's always the same praises and criticisms. I've been on the receiving end of NVC quite a few times in my career, and every single time it comes off as patronizing bullshit. I'd rather people yell at me than couch everything in, "I feel X" or "Would you be willing to Y". When important things must be done well, do you think this sort of language is used? O…
I've found that folks who take "How to Win Friends and Influence People" as a roadmap for getting what they want the same way. I personally think that it's easy to detect when someone is faking empathy, being insincere, etc... And it instantly sours me on whatever conversation I am having when I find myself on the receiving end of these techniques.
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps a better name would help, such as "Non-hostile communication". There is no such thing as violent communication, and the confusion between speech and violence is precisely what is driving the current pro-censorship wave.
I agree. If I'm not mistaken the name comes from Ahimsa [1]. So, Communication for Non-Violence and Compassion might be more accurate. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa
I believe there was a movement to change the name to compassionate communication, maybe even led by Rosenberg himself, but I don’t think it has had as much traction as NVC.
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
NVC does not mean using a formal impersonal tone. NVC is about content and context. If people are using a formal tone with you it’s for a variety of reasons—maybe that’s the appropriate tone, maybe they are frazzled and meet a framework to express themselves, and maybe they’re simply bad at it. I’m not sure why the “not a friend” part comes into it. Most people I talk to are not my friends. When people who aren’t fri…
NVC is factually impersonal and formal. Instead of having a genuine human interaction with somebody, NVC aims to lay out a method of choosing ones words carefully to influence the receiver in the desired way. Nothing about it is casual nor genuinely personal, no matter how many times you utter the word "feel". Feel free to substitute "friend" with "somebody you treat pleasantly with the typical degree of respect". A…
I think any communication technique that you are just starting to practice sounds unnatural.
Just think of NVC as a tool in the toolbox, for how to initiate a difficult conversation and be understood without being as likely to provoke a defensive or derisive response... that then can grow into that genuine, comprehensive human interaction.
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#175I learned this at a company retreat at some point. We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. It takes a little care and thought to apply it well. I've found when done effectively, it can unlock difficult conversations and turn even the most hostile interactions into productive conversations. You are demon…
Perhaps a better name would help, such as "Non-hostile communication". There is no such thing as violent communication, and the confusion between speech and violence is precisely what is driving the current pro-censorship wave.
I believe that communication can be violent, but I guess that depends on one’s definition of “violent.” I see “violent” as causing harm to another being and I can think of many examples how communication can be used for that. Also this is assuming “communication” means verbal communication, because I also see punching someone as a form of communication, or sending one message to another.
That all being said, I think when we receive communication that we perceive as violent, we often have a reaction to try to stop people from saying those things, thus the increase in censorship. I don’t think that works well. What I like about NVC is not about stopping someone from communicating in a violent way, but choosing to respond in a nonviolent way. Similar to MLK’s beliefs on nonviolent resistance. In the end, I believe the goal is to change the way people communicate, but not violently stopping someone from being violent.
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#176> There is no hard data we know of that proves whether NVC actually improves relationships and resolves conflict Just like in “Crucial Conversations” this just tries to make empathy formulaic. Formulaic communication techniques come across as dishonest. A better advice is to be hyper aware of what the other party is trying to convey, whether they are using “violent” or nonviolent way of conveying it, and respond acco…
The formulas are to help us internalize the behavior. Having a crucial conversation is behavior change. We need to change ourselves. The formula helps us see the paths to change. Overtime, as you apply the formula, the underlying behavior sticks, and you forget the formula. So yes, while formulaic empathy feels dishonest, it will eventually lead to you being genuinely more empathetic.
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#177Being nice to others is not problem if you do not need anything from them. But if you want to force someone to do what he doesn't want to do, that is a problem. And being empathic doesn't always help.
If you are empathetic it is easier to force people to do something they don’t want. It costs less political capital and you won’t suffer as much of a backlash.
The combination of empathy and forcing people feels oxymoronic to me. Also, forcing people or even getting them to do something is not in the spirit of NVC, as I understand it.
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
I tend to agree with this. I struggle with non-violent communication. All the violence I've experienced in communication has been high social skill people passive aggressively using "appropriate channels" and "emotional intelligence" to harm me. I tend to prefer directness whether it's up or down the power ladder, and yet the trend is away from that overall. It's sort of minority rule too, where most people prefer di…
> All the violence I've experienced in communication has been high social skill people passive aggressively using "appropriate channels" and "emotional intelligence" to harm me. What would be useful is a kind of "defense against the dark arts" program aimed at teaching people who prefer and practice direct communication to defend against these harms without feeling like they have to start using manipulative tricks th…
This is what I've been building for the last four years—mostly offline, but putting more stuff online:
emotionalselfdefense.com
...unless you were referring to NVC itself, as I think it could also be used for this, although much of the work that I do is trying to build on the shoulders of NVC.
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#179Nonviolent communication comes up on HN every few months and it's always the same praises and criticisms. I've been on the receiving end of NVC quite a few times in my career, and every single time it comes off as patronizing bullshit. I'd rather people yell at me than couch everything in, "I feel X" or "Would you be willing to Y". When important things must be done well, do you think this sort of language is used? O…
> Brilliant marketing move though, calling it "nonviolent communication", implying that any other form of communication is violent. Thanks, I've been trying to put my finger on what irks me about this and I think this is it. I tend to have a strong negative reaction to people trying to control a conversation by framing it with loaded language. It's dishonest and manipulative and you see it all the time .
I think what frustrates me about speaking with some people who have learned NVC is that they seem to speak it with a very rigid formula and then they seem frustrated when I don't respond with the same sentence structure. Almost like they're speaking a different language and want me to conform to their language instead of meeting me halfway.
Does that sound related to what you're talking about?
Re: Interested in improving your relationships? Try Nonviolent Communication
#180I learned this at a company retreat at some point. We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. It takes a little care and thought to apply it well. I've found when done effectively, it can unlock difficult conversations and turn even the most hostile interactions into productive conversations. You are demon…
> We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. Reactions like that tell me once again that a lot of people really underestimate simple stuff like this. I hope that in the future simple and useful psychology topics will find their way into our schools so that the acceptance and understanding for the usefulnes…
The eye rolling is often justified. The value of something like NVC is having an entire framework for managing relationships (and it is a fantastic framework, havn't seen a better one yet).
However a lot of vocal people are happy to take the words and not join the pieces together properly. There are a lot of mistakes in interpreting NVC that quickly lead to eye-roll-worthy corporate inductions. The nuance is critical and complicated.
Eg, I'd assume an average person trying to talk about NVC either thinks:
1) Thinks it is a tool to use after someone else is already upset.
2) Hasn't understood it and thinks that the point is to appease someone who is angry by not being aggressive.