Live data from Hacker News

Collapse OS

collapseos.org

171–180 of 323 posts

Re: Collapse OS

#171

I don't think just developing a Z80 operating system is enough. The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. In agriculture, we have the doomsday seed vault [0] just for this purpose. If we anticipate collapse of the current economic system or society, I think we should build a doomsday computer vault, that keeps everything we need to rebuild the computing industry in a underground bunker. It keeps everything we need i…

This is already being done in some places, eg libraries and museums, it's called Digital Preservation, although it's for normal curatorial purposes rather than Doomsday scenarios. While the focus is on the data, it also necessarily involves access to original hardware at times, which is additionally also often stored for curatorial purposes in its own right. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_preservation

I'm pretty sure the internet, PDFs...etc fail heavily next to the printed form in the case of a complete collapse. As long as people can read, books should be good for this purpose.

Re: Collapse OS

#172

I think some sort or retro low-performance OS should start with NeXTSTEP. Ryzen processors have 80MB of L3 cache! IIRC that may have been twice what was needed to run the colorized versions of NeXT. A lot of "man the old days were all we needed" recollections of Windows and DOS forget how crappy those OSes were... But NeXT? That was basically a modern OS, with a bit less anti-aliasing. XWindow systems STILL look horr…

NeXTSTEP basically became MacOSX when Apple merged MacOS with it.

AROS is the next best OS to use as it has a low memory footprint and can run on X86 systems: http://aros.sourceforge.net/

If you want Windows try ReactOS: https://reactos.org/

OS/2 try OSFree: http://osfree.org/

BeOS try HaikuOS: https://www.haiku-os.org/

All are low memory OSes.

Re: Collapse OS

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Z80 chips are way more common than even x86, by merit of them having proliferated in embedded microcontrollers.

By accessibility I didn't really mean "commonality in terms of numbers," I mean that they are generally more easier to configure and work with (on top of being readily available). x86 PCs and ARM-powered mobile devices are very plentiful, are fairly modular without requiring more sophisticated tools, and avoid a high barrier of entry (i.e. deeper EE experience). The author thinks that when their imagined Mad Max soci…

> I don't think it would be that hard to find some discarded HP desktop or laptop to work on.

In the short term, you're probably right. Most modern desktops and laptops will hopefully last a decade or two (maybe three).

In the medium term, even these will start to break down. One of the key points of failure will be thermal paste; these modern CPUs run quite a bit hotter than a Z80 or 8086 or what have you, and the thermal paste has a finite lifetime (especially the cheaper stuff used in most mass-produced desktops and laptops). Unless you've got a whole bunch of the stuff stocked up, or you're able to setup an immersion cooling rig (with a coolant that's non-conductive and non-corrosive), these PCs will eventually overheat and die. Flash memory and hard drives both have similarly-finite lifetimes, too, so there goes the vast majority of mass-produced storage media (thankfully flash memory longevity is driven by use, so it should be possible to stockpile flash media).

Older chips like the Z80 or 8080/8086 or 6502 tend to avoid the thermal paste problem entirely (by not requiring any sort of heatsink at all), and have simpler memory interfaces (which makes it easier to wire them up to replacement memory, including potentially hand-wound core memory or hand-wired SRAM in a worst-case scenario).

In the long term, even these scavenged Z80s will probably eventually wear out. Hopefully by this time at least some degree of chip fabrication will have been bootstrapped back into existence, in which case replacement Z80s and 8080s/8086s will most likely be possible much sooner than replacement 386s and ARMs.

----

EDIT:

> x86 PCs and ARM-powered mobile devices are very plentiful, are fairly modular without requiring more sophisticated tools, and avoid a high barrier of entry (i.e. deeper EE experience)

Possibly, from a certain point of view. Apples-to-apples, though, this is very unlikely to be true. Z80-based computers tend to be electrically simpler (by a pretty wide margin) than x86-based or ARM-based computers. There's a lot more supporting circuitry between the CPU and memory/peripherals/etc., which means more components that can fail (and be difficult to replace, especially given the tighter electrical and latency tolerances of the average x86 or ARM motherboard).

Re: Collapse OS

#174
post #131

I don't think just developing a Z80 operating system is enough. The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. In agriculture, we have the doomsday seed vault [0] just for this purpose. If we anticipate collapse of the current economic system or society, I think we should build a doomsday computer vault, that keeps everything we need to rebuild the computing industry in a underground bunker. It keeps everything we need i…

Bad news on that seed vault. [1] 1: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/19/arctic-s...

How was this not built to be waterproof?!

Re: Collapse OS

#175

Why does the author think the global supply chain will collapse in the next ten years? What scenario do they envision? Climate change? Will cost trillions of dollars and billions of lives, but will likely be played out over course of several decades. We will be stressing out about it but its not going to be electronics-ending apocalyptic Nuclear war? Please. The countries that have the capability are also level-heade…

Imagine it's 1910. The same argument you make against nuclear war can be made happily against a large scale war then.

Re: Collapse OS

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also the cochroach equivalent of a processor, tough as hell, functional on a ropey power supply and can be used to make a simple 8 bit machine with very few ancillary chips - the reason they ended up in the sinclair zx's.

Similar reasons are likely why they were in the TRS-80.

The TRS-80 was... not built for ruggedness and durability. At least not if you had a system with any peripherals; the cables were notoriously flaky, to the point that the problems are on record in the Wikipedia page, as an explanation for the "Trash-80" sobriquet. (I recall at the time seeing aftermarket recommendations for expensive cables and doing things like wrapping components in tinfoil to try to get some extra RF shielding.)

Re: Collapse OS

#177
Forth is the ideal language for bootstrapping a cobbled-together computer from whatever scraps you can find. Forth gives you a shell, an assembler, a disassembler, and a rich, extensible programming language in a few kilobytes. You can peek or poke hardware interactively, or use the REPL as a calculator. Forth-style assemblers also make cross-compilation very practical.

If I was tasked with bootstrapping a post-apocalyptic computer from junk, a hard copy of a well-commented Forth implementation would be a welcome assistance.

Re: Collapse OS

#178
To me a much more interesting avenue to be able to “bootstrap the pc era” would be to achieve DIY knowledge enough to recreate TTL on a garage. Afterwards you can at least create a computer from the 80s, as Ben Eater is doing in his youtube channel.

Re: Collapse OS

#179
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad news on that seed vault. [1] 1: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/19/arctic-s...

How was this not built to be waterproof?!

it's extremely difficult to build waterproof subterranean buildings, especially if they're built into permafrost (which seems these days to be more like tempofrost). this very long but fascinating video discusses it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nphxoUxSvgY

Re: Collapse OS

#180

Why does the author think the global supply chain will collapse in the next ten years? What scenario do they envision? Climate change? Will cost trillions of dollars and billions of lives, but will likely be played out over course of several decades. We will be stressing out about it but its not going to be electronics-ending apocalyptic Nuclear war? Please. The countries that have the capability are also level-heade…

> this prepper BS is just fantasy driven by a hyper-apocalyptic news cycle shlepping around clickbait

Au contraire, it’s the belief that our system can continue like it’s doing that is the real hyperbole. Collapse is just baseline reality of civilizations.

- HISTORY: Collapse is a property of every civilization we’ve studied. These people were as smart if not smarter than us, working with societies smaller and simpler than ours.

- ECONOMY: The way money is created and managed today is an ongoing experiment that almost ended in 2008, and we are still on uncharted ground. We can only continue paying for debt by increasing consumption in the following year, yet our debt keeps increasing, by the ever-devaluation of our currency, requiring more production and consumption. No one is planning on an end to this model of growth.

- TECH: Most of our infrastructure is built under the incentive of increased efficiency and profit, not long-term robustness since profit has to be sacrificed to plan for contingencies like price fluctuations in supply. Short term tech outcompetes the long term, easy. Strong but fragile. And then there’s the incentivized inefficiencies from economies of scale: one calorie of food now requires ten calories of energy from our system to produce.

- COMPLEXITY: “More is different.” As everything becomes interconnected, things become entrenched into dynamics that become increasingly difficult to control and even reason about. Rational decision-making must always be filtered by the interests of the current system, thus there is a loss in agency in what we can do (read: incentives), and we are stuck trying to find creative solutions that must accept the framework of what may be a harmful system, often just making that system more effectively harmful.

- ENVIRONMENT: Some call it the sixth mass extinction. Whatever it is, the biosphere is changing dramatically. Soil is in a weird zombie state kept alive by oil. The basic line is that the value of life is diminished through the lens of our economy, as dead resources. So our model will continue bringing the real world into consistency with that deadness.

- MYTHS: When we live in a civilization that sanctifies all forms of advancement and improvement and growth, there is no fertile soil for the acceptance of limitation. We only have the vocabulary to label it pessimist. Thus, optimism becomes co-opted for the aspirations of a mythical techno-utopia beyond all conceivable boundary.

Post reply on HN