Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency • Hacker News Board

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#171

Post by jbverschoor » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:42 AM UTC

origami777 wrote: post #60

csomar wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that 1. Same has been said of Bitcoin, and yet the government kinda embraced it. 2. Facebook is not making Libra. It is a non-profit based in Switzerland. 3. Libra is backed by USD-EUR-JPY and the related countries might turn a blind eye because of that.

You don't seem to know much about gov financial regulation. 1. Gov didn't embrace bitcoin, they regulated it. The exchanges have to do KYC and AML monitoring and report activity. 2. If you think FB doesn't 100% control it, I have a bridge to sell you. 3. This doesn't really mean much at the end of the day. It's a tactical decision with low impact on regulations. What you're failing to appreciate is how important it i…

They tax your holdings.

The thing is, money is an iou from the government. If people start using other ious, the influence and power of the government will fade. Result is that libra will control a country.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#172

Post by colechristensen » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:42 AM UTC

alwillis wrote: post #121

colechristensen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing like an indestructible globally replicated register of your transactions to help make yourself discoverable

Wasabi and other modern bitcoin wallets run over Tor and have built-in features (like CoinJoin, coin control, etc.) to defeat blockchain analysis companies: https://docs.wasabiwallet.io/why-wasabi/ There are also decentralized, Tor-encrypted exchanges to buy and sell bitcoin like Bisq: https://bisq.network/ .

Either it works and you'll find it impossible to defend legalizing cryptocurrencies with money-laundering-as-a-service in front of Congress, or it doesn't work and prosecutors will slap money laundering charges on top of any crime that matters and you'll have a lot more difficult time defending yourself and your intent when you go to such lengths to hide your financial transactions.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#173

Post by Nokinside » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:42 AM UTC

Big megacorps suck at innovation. Their internally developed product innovations are typically crap.

This comes as a surprise for companies like Facebook because they were once internet startups. They still see themselves as youthful and innovative. Wearing T-shirt or being casual may correlate with innovation, but there is no causality. The founder/CEO had success with one big idea that turned into success. What evidence there is that they can recognize and repeat the success multiple times?

They can successfully refine and expand their original idea and grow it, but their internally developed 'disruptions' are crap just like any random pitch.

Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, Google, Amazon buy new ideas, then use the economics of scale and network effects to make it success. Amazon has expanded the idea of internet retail from books to everything, including data centers. Apple finds success in design and branding competence. Google is still search and advertising company.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#174

Post by colechristensen » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:44 AM UTC

vinniejames wrote: post #131

colechristensen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 for the first and second points, but I think it will play out much differently. Facebook will try to defy regulators, but I think the SEC will stomp on them, hard. It will end up a hybrid battle in the courts and Congress between libertarians, a few flavors of privacy advocates, US regulatory concerns, and ultimately land on US power projection concerns. I think the US will eventually shape the law and regulatory…

I tend to agree, the biggest concern here is the goverment will create overly broad legislation with the only purpose of leveraging it against truly decentralized cryptocurrencies

Cryptocurrency enthusiasts (and... Facebook) are actively inviting legislative overreaction with their actions.

Don't poke the bear.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#175

Post by knorker » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:52 AM UTC

vinniejames wrote: post #136

vertex-four wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the regulators let them get away with that, nobody in Europe is particularly in need of a cryptocurrency for moving money around Europe, we have near-instant money transfers for free (or close to it) through our banks. I guess they could go for the remittances market, but that's really not where I see Facebook wanting to go.

This fact is only an effect of the EU, it's a single banking system. That's like saying we don't need a cryptocurrency system in the US because it's easy to move money from California to New York :/

Is it? Last I checked it took days and cost money.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#176

Post by Kubuxu » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:53 AM UTC

chank wrote: post #47

ilaksh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of Libra was not really to compete with Western Union. It was more to compete with real cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, Ethereum, Monero, etc. and it wasn't just Facebook's idea. PayPal, Visa etc. know that real cryptocurrencies are eventually going to put them out of business. That's why they joined in on this fake cryptocurrency. The reason companies are pulling out is probably just because it looks like it…

It's way more complex than that. Pretty much everyone in government and the crypto space doesn't want Libra to succeed under it's current stewardship. The implications are very far reaching. Also, there isn't a single cryptocurrency today that can't be tracked, even ones like Monero.

ZCash?

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#177

Post by alt_f4 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:03 AM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #154

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

> Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone

This already exists. If your bank's AML algorithm flags certain transactions, your account will be frozen, with no explanation (they legally can't tell you why they did it, it is an offense). You will be asked to produce some documents whilst they and potentially law enforcement investigate. Again, you won't be told why or how long it will take. Usually, if you haven't done anything wrong, you'll have no access to your money for 1-2 months.

Now, here's the kicker. Those flagging algorithms aren't very good. They don't work on any sophisticated social graphs.

They're based on a bunch of simple rules -- maybe you made a large cash deposit, or wired more money than usual, or received a bunch of small transactions (maybe you're selling drugs?). The flag is raised, the account is frozen and you're shit out of luck trying to get an explanation or buying things for a few months.

Given we still use banks, I'm sure "you violated our community standards" won't be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#178

Post by Mengkudulangsat » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:06 AM UTC

Iv wrote: post #146

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

Either Zuckberg has a geeky naive understanding of financial institutions to think this will go easily, or he is ready to use blackmail material. Libra is something I wish we fight to the death.

What is so hateful about Libra when compared with the People Bank of China's digital currency project? When that is launched, any non-chinese can hold digital yuan without a bank account.

Wouldn't the west want something equivalent for geopolitical reasons?

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#179

Post by AngryData » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:09 AM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #154

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

Ive had similar thoughts about paypal for a long time after they randomly shut down one of my accounts for unspecified suspicious activity and was doing everything possible to not deal with it and fix their mistake. And I know I wasn't the only one either. And yet it still survives to this day.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#180

Post by Traster » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 9:17 AM UTC

antpls wrote: post #126

dao- wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it in PayPal's interest that Libra succeeds? It seems that they would be competitors. They might just have backed it strategically to somehow have a stake in it if it takes off big time. Given the pushback they could now bank on the whole thing failing instead.

The point of the cryptocurrency was to decentralize Libra amongst several actors, such as Visa, Master Card, Paypal, etc If done, Libra would have been the common interest of all those actors. That was the goal of the project.

So the plan was to form a cartel in public?