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Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

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Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#171

Post by samsolomon »

orf wrote: post #70
mc32 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it the opposite way, the tanks become a last resort. They have to use hard power rather than alternatives.

You’d think that an armed protest group would mean that the government reacts with _less_ force? Rather than simply deploying an appropriate amount of force to stop them? Because the simple fact is that the government will win in the game of “who has more guns and power”, just as it would in the USA, and there is no way a government would set a precedent that all you need to make it capitulate is wave a gun around. I…

Historically small arms win conflicts—not tanks, planes or bombs.

The U.S. failed in Vietnam and has struggled in Afghanistan since 2001 against insurgents with little more than rifles.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#172

Post by heavyset_go »

nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

The second amendment didn't stop Kent State from taking place.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#173

Post by saalweachter »

swarnie_ wrote: post #22
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

The historical context is somewhat divorced from the modern interpretation (and in other respects, intimately connected).

The thing to keep in mind is that the U.S. Revolution was not what we would call today a grassroots movement. It was based in the pre-existing State-level representative governments. It wasn't a mob of people spontaneously deciding to take to the streets and push the bastards out, it was a functional system of government deciding to shave off the layer above.

When the States decided to switch from a looser confederation to form a more perfect Union, they wanted to keep that option open to repeat the process -- it was not originally about John Doe using his musket to chase off the local tax collector but about the State of Virginia using its own Army of Virginia to drive out anyone trying to interfere overly much in its business.

Incidentally, most States still have standing forces that report to the Governor.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#174

Post by bhupy »

Fezzik wrote: post #168
nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

The US (with its support of the military) has been at war in the Middle East for nearly 2 decades now with insurgents.

The argument is not that a rebellious citizenry will necessarily win a war, it's that it will draw out a bloody civil war so long and so expensive as to be a form of mutually assured destruction, the risk of which acts as a check in and of itself.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#175

Post by djsumdog »

mc32 wrote: post #29
program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

Obviously this is very complicated. Protesters have rights but so do police officers —we hope both operate within the bounds of the law and then that politicians would do the work for a compromise. But, it becomes really complicated rather fast when rights get eroded. When the Russians were caught unprepared for war, it wasn’t “right” to send their young conscripts to war with antiquated arms against a modernized for…

Surrender? People criticize the French and others prior to WW2, but would it really have been better to fight unprepared and let a few tens or hundreds of thousands die right off the bat? Sometimes the strategic decision is not the emotional one.

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." -Wargames

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#176

Post by falcor84 »

djsumdog wrote: post #163
kristiandupont wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If HK'ers had a similar right to carry guns, do you honestly believe that they would be any better off right now?

You really can't protect yourself from a government in a stable State, because the State needs a monopoly on violence to exist. Even in America, the argument from 2nd amendment advocates, that guns help protect American citizens from their government is absolutely ludicrous. There is no realistic way for Americans to stand up to the entire US State with violence. Not without some very wide spread belief in the failur…

>There is no realistic way for Americans to stand up to the entire US State with violence.

Yup, particularly not as long as the same people vote to reduce access to secure communication methods.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#177

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cjslep wrote: post #122
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert? The point is to increase the cost of violence against the population. The Swiss bunker / guerrilla strategy. Also, there is no reason to suspect asymmetric vectors like autonomous drone armies would accrue solely to state…

> The Swiss bunker / guerrilla strategy. As an American living in Switzerland, this is not a fair comparison. The Swiss strategy involves mandatory service (with the backing of the government), short and long term preparations against an outside invading force (with the backing of the government), highly regulated gun ownership (with the backing of the government). It's always wielded with the backing of the governme…

> As an American living in Switzerland, this is not a fair comparison

As a Swiss American, I agree. Today’s Second Amendment debate is perverted.

My argument was to the point of the Second Amendment, its intent. America is currently on an extreme end of the gun-debate spectrum.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#178

Post by foobarian »

DanTheManPR wrote: post #139
foobarian wrote: post #24

Great Britain gave HK back to China. They can do with it as they please - unfortunately I don't see how the protesters can come out on the right side of this without a revolution. Thought experiment: if say Rhode Island had a Muslim majority and they voted themselves Sharia law in violation of federal articles, how cavalier would the federal government / the rest of the populous be in tolerating this?

"They can do with it as they please"... what? The tyrannical CCP has some sort of fundamental ownership right over the lives the people of HK? Your statement about sharia law in Rhode Island not only confirms that you don't care about the will of the people in the democratic sense (which, in your thought experiment, are mostly muslims, and you imply actually do want religiously based laws), but also reverses the reas…

It doesn't matter what I care about. It's a simple question: in the stated scenario, which, even if it was the will of the people but a blatant usurpation of the US constitution - what do YOU think would happen?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#179

Post by mytailorisrich »

program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

The situation of HK and the rights of the residents have not fundamentally changed since it was ceded to the British in 1842. In fact they have more democratic representation now than during most of their history.

It's far from perfect but it's infinitely better than on the mainland.

Nothing justifies "resorting to violence" in HK today. The violent actions along with anti-Chinese displays are in fact counterproductive because they push the central government to tighten the screw and unite the mainland's public opinion against them.

Many of these protesters have no democratic culture themselves. Anyone who disagrees with them is wrong and an enemy that must be fought by any means.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#180

Post by bhy »

exabrial wrote: post #142
mc32 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s uncertain what the eventual outcome would be, but one thing is for sure, it would increase the threshold before the tanks rolled in.

I don't think the Hong Kong government would allow the PLA to invade.

Hong Kong is defended by the PLA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Hon...
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