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The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

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Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#171

Post by food_eater »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #128
cameronbrown wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning Nazi content is easily the most obvious way to create real Nazis amongst the youth, who being young are attracted to anything taboo, or who may believe that there's some big conspiracy to cover something up so "it must be true, they don't want us to know". This is a dark line of thinking.

Honestly, no it's not. When society doesn't just ban, but abhor Nazis, then Nazi groups are small. There's people who are into rejection, but it's not a lot. When Society sees Nazi things as forbidden fruit and makes them widely available, then you get the bully types dabbling in it, and it's more widespread. And when society permits it to be mainstream politics, you're one solid resistance movement away from genocid…

[flagged]

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#172

Post by cameronbrown »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #128
cameronbrown wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning Nazi content is easily the most obvious way to create real Nazis amongst the youth, who being young are attracted to anything taboo, or who may believe that there's some big conspiracy to cover something up so "it must be true, they don't want us to know". This is a dark line of thinking.

Honestly, no it's not. When society doesn't just ban, but abhor Nazis, then Nazi groups are small. There's people who are into rejection, but it's not a lot. When Society sees Nazi things as forbidden fruit and makes them widely available, then you get the bully types dabbling in it, and it's more widespread. And when society permits it to be mainstream politics, you're one solid resistance movement away from genocid…

> There's people who are into rejection, but it's not a lot.

You're missing my point.

Those most likely to be radicalised are already isolated.

If we scrub content about Nazi ideology from Internet Archive (and everywhere else), these people will find it elsewhere and likely be even more radicalised than they otherwise would be.

Nobody is arguing it should be mainstream politics, only that it should be archived and preserved as lessons to the future generations.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#173

Post by weberc2 »

TomMckenny wrote: post #55
IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're criticising the article for making an argument that you realise is happening entirely in your head?

All fact checking is opposed by the far-right worldwide (and is in fact a threat). Justification for opposing it is sought after the opinion has been formed. And since denouncing facts themselves doesn't work in all societies yet, opposition requires quite a bit of mental gymnastics and fallacious reasoning like "all sides lie" or, with no justification, "fact checkers strategically target lies that serve my politica…

Be wary of the "the far right does it therefore everyone else who does it is far right" fallacy. In particular, when a fact checker says that they need to do something about , _even though I personally dislike those political movements_, I know that they're probably biased.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#174

Post by apostacy »

ntzm wrote: post #117
emilfihlman wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>An archive only archiving history they agree with is not worth the funding. 100%. It reduces the entire point to just voluntarily donating to your favourite think tank or political party, not an "archive".

I'd rather not have a manual for starting a neo-nazi race war archived to be honest

Who gets to decide who is a neo-nazi though?

I've heard Jordan Peterson and Steven Pinker called neo-nazis.

Maybe you're a neo-nazi. Since neo-nazis always deny being neo-nazis, then your denials are further proof that you are a neo-nazi. B&

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#175

Post by weberc2 »

Swenrekcah wrote: post #64
taborj wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that is heavy on one side, and an order or two of magnitude less on the other side I disagree with this assertion. I think both sides are equally guilty of this, but on different topics, which can make apples to apples comparisons difficult. For example, take a look at the numbers behind gun laws and deaths in the US, and you'll find misinformation propagated by the left. If you look at climate change information, yo…

I agree but I specifically mentioned the topics of Brexit and the admittetly broader ‘Trumpism’. On these topics the asymmetry is phenomenal. Take the recent ‘sharpiegate’ as an example for how little regard, contempt even, Trump has for the truth and facts.

(By the way, I didn't downvote you) I agree that Trump has no great respect for truth and facts. I also think the left is doggedly pursuing him in its own anti-factual aspirations. I see your sharpiegate and raise you the Covington Catholic affair (the most prominent news outlets in the country overtly slandering children, ostensibly on the basis of their race and gender) or the Google memo (same idea) or the sokal squared hoax (moderate academics submit patently absurd papers to leftist academic journals and the journals publish them). I could go on and on and I'm sure you could too--that's my point. I would alledge that Trumpism's mirror image is progressive social justice culture.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#176

Post by ppseafield »

ntzm wrote: post #117
emilfihlman wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>An archive only archiving history they agree with is not worth the funding. 100%. It reduces the entire point to just voluntarily donating to your favourite think tank or political party, not an "archive".

I'd rather not have a manual for starting a neo-nazi race war archived to be honest

I think it's worth discussing this comment instead of downvoting it.

There was a lot of controversy around the copyright expiration of Mein Kampf in Germany a few years ago. The Bavarian government owned the copyright and refused to allow it to be printed. When the copyright expired, annotated versions were released, putting the book in context. There are certain disadvantages that not printing had: making the book more mysterious and taboo, and leaving the text to stand on its own when it was acquired (thus having no space for rebuttals, historical comments, etc.).

Personally I lean toward keeping these kinds of things but annotating them and providing ample context - the equivalent of a study on history or a museum exhibit. Maybe we as a species can learn from our mistakes. It's not like forgetting these texts will prevent the same conditions that created the rise of fascism and genocide.

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#177

Post by loa_in_ »

foota wrote: post #91
Rebelgecko wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got frustrated with this one time when I tried to look up a defunct website in the Wayback Machine. The website was gone, but had been replaced by a domain squatter with a restrictive robots.txt. Because of the new roboots.txt, all of the old site was retroactively made unavailable. As time passes and more websites change hands, it would be a nice compromise if the default behavior was only to make retroactive dele…

Would be cool if this could be tied to SSL keys. Being able to serve requests with the same SSL key could be used as verification. (obviously some edge cases like people that are behind some kind of common SSL cert like a subdomain with shared hosting)

That's impossible due to the way assymetric encryption works. It would help to indicate to the user, and maybe allow searching/grouping by certificate hash to transcend domain names

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#179

Post by apostacy »

makomk wrote: post #56
asiekierka wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they make the decision, or did Snopes ask them to blacklist their website?

Presumably Snopes asked them, although the notice doesn't say. They don't automatically exclude stuff from the archive for just anyone who asks them though - they're quite happy to refuse if they think it's politically important enough.

It feels dishonest to me honestly. Snopes has had some fact checking mistakes that they have silently deleted. I wish publications would own up to it when they make a mistake. Retractions are dying, instead stories just get 404ed.

This reminds of when Salon published an article which was criticized for being too sympathetic to pedophilia, and when called out on it, simply deleted it and pretended they never published it. Salon has since started actively thwarting archiving services.

[1]: https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/833835031328124928

Re: The Internet Archive is waging war on misinformation

#180

Post by krapp »

apostacy wrote: post #174
ntzm wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather not have a manual for starting a neo-nazi race war archived to be honest

Who gets to decide who is a neo-nazi though? I've heard Jordan Peterson and Steven Pinker called neo-nazis. Maybe you're a neo-nazi. Since neo-nazis always deny being neo-nazis, then your denials are further proof that you are a neo-nazi. B&

I've never understood why people make this argument, or what they think it proves.

Yes, the term "neo-nazi" is sometimes misapplied. That misapplication doesn't mean that neo-nazis don't exist, or that the term has no meaning. If the term didn't have an established, commonly agreed upon meaning that referred to a specific ideology and movement in the real world, then there would be no reason to quibble about its misuse, because calling someone a neo-nazi would be as meaningless as calling them a flarndingle.

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