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Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

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Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#171
post #80

Is anyone else baffled by the idea that discussing something on an intellectual level, even related to a person, has to somehow be a 'defense' or an 'offense'? I've spent basically my entire life discussing things in the abstract. I'm not a politician, I don't make laws, and frankly I wouldn't want that power. To me it makes absolute sense that someone would attempt to "defend" even the most heinous person. It's weir…

> It's weird to me that being considered a "defender of X" could even be a bad thing. That's the process by which we collectively make decisions, it's the basis behind stuff like fair trials for example; the lawyer acting for a defendant is not a bad person. Except that in fair trials we have the concept of stare decisis , that once something has been decided, it's been decided. We very intentionally do not have the…

>I don't think he made a contribution to the discourse that's worth defending at a social level.

This is a strange conclusion for you to draw because this statement applies to the majority of HN posts likely including both yours and mine. No decisions are being made here.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#172
post #56

Worth noting that (as far as I know) Stallman was not a paid employee of MIT, certainly not a professor or anything. He had an office because, I believe, Gerry Sussman (and probably others) thought he should have an office. He's listed as a "visiting scientist" on CSAIL's page: https://www.csail.mit.edu/person/richard-stallman He's around on the mailing list (mostly to reply to every mention of software with a questi…

A little tangential, but I didn't know there was a utility called `finger`. Is this supposed to be a profile directory envisioned for an Internet back when it was more decentralized?

There was a time when nobody was "NAT"ed and basically every workstation had an Internet Address. I would sit at my office at Olivetti Advanced Technlogy and be able to "finger" people's workstations at Sun, HP, and Adobe and see what they were up to.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#173
post #126
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's weird to me that being considered a "defender of X" could even be a bad thing. That's the process by which we collectively make decisions, it's the basis behind stuff like fair trials for example; the lawyer acting for a defendant is not a bad person. Except that in fair trials we have the concept of stare decisis , that once something has been decided, it's been decided. We very intentionally do not have the…

> The arguments Stallman presented were hardly arguments and were not novel at all. You think that Minsky being unaware of the coercion would not be a mitigating factor in accusing him of sexual assault? When was that decided?

"Honestly officer, I had no idea the new-in-box MacBook that guy to sold me for $300 out of his unmarked van was stolen."

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#174
Something that I think most folks in this thread are missing, that's hugely important to what actually happened here:

This was not an isolated incident.

If it were, I'd look at his comments and write it off as his usual tendency to jump on a minor point and derail a conversation with some totally pedantic technicallity, and I do think the thing he actually said in this case has been wildly mis-interpreted and overstated in many places (the bits about him defending Epstein are clearly untrue, and even the author of the blog post that went viral and set off the shitstorm has said so, and sent corrections to the publications she'd spoken to directly).

I even agree with his statement that, from a moral standpoint 17 vs. 18 isn't really that important -- we set arbitrary cutoffs for age of consent and it's not like there's a legal determination to be made re: Minsky anyway: he's dead.

So from that mailing list thread alone, it reads like a typical autism-spectrum dude missing the social context, making a pedantic point that people read too much into and take the wrong way, and getting himself in trouble. And this is an angle that would naturally draw my own sympathies toward him.

But Stallman is on-record as saying he thinks there's such a thing as "consentual pedophila", and given that context, I think folks can be forgiven for reading into his current statements.

Ultimately though, the bigger issue isn't even about anything that happened in the past few days. RMS has been behaving inappropriately in more serious ways for decades. There are many stories out there about him harassing and propositioning students, making wildly inappropriate remarks to women, and generally making a bad situation around gender and inclusiveness in tech worse. Everyone I've talked to who has known him in a non-trivial personal capacity has corroberated this. The fact that this email is the thing prompted a blog post that happened to go viral and got people to make a fuss about it is incidental.

Even at the FSF's own conferences, he's one of the more frequent violators of the safe space policies that the organizers have put in place. I think the first year the conference had an explicit safe space/anti-harassment policy, he was the only person who violated it (in this case it took the form of a sexualized joke during his closing keynote).

I kinda have the same somewhat fearful gut reaction to these kinds of episodes as a lot of geeky guys do. There's a post[1] out there (which I think originally I found through hacker news) that does a pretty good job of analyzing where that reaction is coming from, and why the fear isn't totally illegitimate, but the idea that this is just a mob picking on some misunderstood misfit is just not what's happening here. Folks have been lienient to the point of negligience with him up until now.

[1]: https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman participated in an online discussion of the situation in which he condemned Epstein, but questioned whether or not Minsky had done wrong. It was not clear whether Minsky was aware that the woman had been coerced into having sex with him. There was a reply on the thread which said that the woman was under the age of consent in the country where the act was said to have taken place (but not in the US, I guess)…

> where it is apparently OK in one country, but if you go on holiday to another country it is rape No, having sex with Epstein's trafficked victims is considered rape in pretty much all countries. Protestations that the victim "presented herself as willing" are like defending a buyer of obviously stolen goods on the basis that the fence didn't overtly tell them they were stolen. Minsky was a 73-year-old man offered s…

I think you are correct but at best this means minsky is guilty not Stallman because coming to the wrong conclusion unlike rape isn't a crime and we shouldn't be afraid to have opinions.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no real difference. He said that. And there are even worse comments that he made in that thread.

There's a big difference. "Presented as" does not mean "was", and the sentence immediately after that makes it clear that he didn't mean it as such. There are other pretty bad comments, yes. If most of the coverage focused on those rather than something he didn't actually say, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.

Here here, RMS is a weirdo but he's being vilified for things that do not effect his job in any way, he is by no means a representative for MIT, and his opinions on unrelated matters (no matter how misguided they might be) do not change his ability to represent the FSF.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#178

> Amongst my real-life friendship groups this sort of "hate mob" type stuff just doesn't exist You have great friendship groups. Do you remember, by any chance how this topic was handled in your discussions (I am genuinely curios) "... Brendan Eich is gone. The creator of JavaScript and co-founder of mozilla.org has quit as Mozilla’s CEO, forced out by the uproar over a donation he made six years ago to a ballot meas…

Brendan Eich gave money to a cause that would have limited the rights of his employees. He actively chose to do that. If you're willing to publicly support a position you should not be surprised if it had ramifications. It doesn't matter if no one knew about whether or not he discriminated against employees, it's an appearance of impropriety and his actions outside of work led to a destabilisation of the company inside work. Same thing has happened numerous times to numerous people across any number of issues. It used to be that association with PoC could get you blacklisted. Then there was the Red scare. This has always been happening and most likely always will.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#179
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it comes down to whether RMS's position at CSAIL amounted to a leadership position or not, I'd venture that it did. Professors have institutional power that everyone else on the CSAIL list who isn't one don't have. Someone who abuses their name and position to blast screeds like that, I can see why CSAIL might not want him around anymore.

Being a leader of any sort makes it worse, but I don't think it's a necessary condition for justifying his removal. Each person contributes to the flavor of the community in which they participate. It is within the right of those who lead the community to curate its flavor by adding or removing people when necessary. In this his case, his removal was well-justified for the cause of keeping the community welcoming and…

i love this attempt to put gutter bumpers on the whole world. doomed, but adorable

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#180
post #56

Worth noting that (as far as I know) Stallman was not a paid employee of MIT, certainly not a professor or anything. He had an office because, I believe, Gerry Sussman (and probably others) thought he should have an office. He's listed as a "visiting scientist" on CSAIL's page: https://www.csail.mit.edu/person/richard-stallman He's around on the mailing list (mostly to reply to every mention of software with a questi…

Well, then, I guess Gerry Sussmann will have to go next!

https://web.archive.org/web/20101112051649/http://www.jeffre...

"Jeffrey Epstein is one of the most amazing, interesting, and brilliant people that I know.” – Gerald Sussman, Panasonic Professor of Engineering, MIT

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