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Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

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Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#171
post #61

One naive question - why are doctors who overperscribed opiates still allowed to practice medicine?

Doctors are not researchers. Some doctors might dig deep but others go to work then go home and spend time with their families. They also have bills to pay and school loans.

I can't recall the story exactly but there was a doctor who spoke out against a popular medication. He found that it increased a chance of a heart attack I believe by over 50%. They released a small study in a journal and his existence became a living hell. Eventually, the knowledge became main stream.

I for example had a serious reaction to cipro, left me with chronic pain. This reaction is starting to become common knowledge, yet I have found a single doctor willing to put down possible side effects of cipro in my chart. People have been reporting these side effects to FDA for 15+ years, it is affecting many people but symptoms take up to 12 months to surface and doctors don't want to accept it. I have talked to number of people diagnosed with fibromyalgia for example that later realized they took cipro for UTI right before symptoms began. Plus, the FDA has been making the label more severe almost every year. The European organization EMA suggested doctors use these medication only in life threatening infections.

Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#172
post #163
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO is not a regulatory agency and does not have finally authority for anything. https://www.who.int/about/role/en/

It's not just the WHO. The same arguments apply equally to e.g. the FDA who played a similar role in this by rubber stamping the drugs. And similarly it also doesn't just end at the FDA as there are numerous smaller level regulatory agencies and operators involved on the medical side. Even non-regulatory agencies, such as the American Medical Association also showed themselves to be somewhat useless by decisions such…

The FDA does quite a bit to keep both good and bad actors in check. They are not perfect, but for example they regularly track down outbreaks of food born illnesses in ways the producers simply can’t. https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety...

Making wide sweeping statements based on very specific issues simply demonstrates ignorance of how these organizations actually interact with the systems they regulate.

PS: As to FDA ‘rubber stamping’ the drug, using opioids for treatment of end of life cancer pain is perfectly reasonable. OxyContin is just one of a huge list of similar drugs that have been in use long before this outbreak. It’s not the chemical that’s the problem is the other actions by the company.

Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#173
post #168

I have a high level question; a lot of want to legalize drugs. Ending the war on drugs and all that. This is a drug that was legal and a lot of people got on it and now we're angry. Why? I don't like that people got hurt. I also recognize that bad drugs are bad. But I can't find a way out of "tell people drugs are bad and they have to make their own choices." Is the problem here the doctors told them the bad drugs we…

From my understanding, this company lied about the effects of the drug. That is the problem. If they would have said "hey we have a great drug that completely dopes a patient up and works like magic to block pain, BUT only give it for one or two days OR ELSE they will become addicted" then we would not be here now debating this. Instead what they told doctors was that the drug was safe at the recommended prescription…

A direct comparison is to the tobacco industry. Tobacco sales still remain legal in most of the country, but for multiple reasons there's been huge restrictions on how and where and to whom (no marketing to minors/kids) tobacco companies can market. Tobacco products have to be marked with big addiction warnings, and very visible reminders of side effects. Tobacco products also generally have taxes collected specifically to directly finance anti-addiction resources in many states.

Legally selling the drug is orthogonal from morally/ethically dealing with the consequences of the drug, including regulating how it is sold, how it is marketed, how it deals with its own consequences.

Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#174
post #96
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that recommendation in the first place was an act of bad faith. This seems a bit of a stretch to me. The doctors prescribed it, even given readily available research, the FDA approved it, knowing full well this was a risk. Those are the guilty parties here. Purdue filled their role just fine, they just happened to be making an opiate and so they're getting chased for it now because China is dumping fentanyl. Pretty…

According to the congressional report: “Purdue Pharma used front organizations and sponsored research to deceive the World Health Organization and corrupt global public health policies” If that is true and public policy was corruptly manipulated , how can you claim that this is all ok because it was allowed by public policy?

[deleted]

Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#175
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, this makes me think we should be going after doctors too.

We should be. We should also be going after the distributors who were shipping millions of pills a year to small towns with a population of 6000. This is not an either/or situation, there is plenty of blame to go around.

[deleted]

Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#176
post #172
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the WHO. The same arguments apply equally to e.g. the FDA who played a similar role in this by rubber stamping the drugs. And similarly it also doesn't just end at the FDA as there are numerous smaller level regulatory agencies and operators involved on the medical side. Even non-regulatory agencies, such as the American Medical Association also showed themselves to be somewhat useless by decisions such…

The FDA does quite a bit to keep both good and bad actors in check. They are not perfect, but for example they regularly track down outbreaks of food born illnesses in ways the producers simply can’t. https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety... Making wide sweeping statements based on very specific issues simply demonstrates ignorance of how these organizations actually interact with the systems t…

Oxycontin wasn't just rubber stamped for end of life cancer treatment. You're referring to when the FDA decided to further expand Purdue's drug rights enabling it to be used on 11-16 year olds. Purdue, when seeking this approval, were already facing criminal charges for their marketing of oxycontin. And the FDA's decision in expanding treatment to kids was primarily driven by them asking Purdue to carry out studies evaluating the safety and effectiveness of oxycontin on kids, because they seem like trustworthy guys. Lo, and behold, Purdue's carried out some "studies" and told the FDA it's just awesome. And the FDA said, "Oh okay, cool." [1]

And this story repeats over and over since our entire regulatory system is, when it comes to the big and influential players from Purdue to Boeing, mostly just glorified self regulation. And that leads to a worst of both worlds scenario. We get the lack of oversight inherent in self regulation, yet it's paired with an undue faith in our regulatory systems as many people don't understand the actual regulatory processes, or lack thereof.

[1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/fda-d...

Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#177

I have a high level question; a lot of want to legalize drugs. Ending the war on drugs and all that. This is a drug that was legal and a lot of people got on it and now we're angry. Why? I don't like that people got hurt. I also recognize that bad drugs are bad. But I can't find a way out of "tell people drugs are bad and they have to make their own choices." Is the problem here the doctors told them the bad drugs we…

The problem is complicated. Here are some abridged points from an OECD document linked below.

1. Overprescription, in the US, there were 240 million opioid prescriptions in the US in 2015, enough for one for every adult in the general population.[1]

2. Poor mental health treatment, "in the United States, 18.7% of all patients with mental health conditions receive 51.4% of the total opioid prescriptions distributed each year, meaning that having a mental health disorder was associated with a two-fold greater use of prescription opioids"[1]

3. Greater availability + lower cost and higher purity of opioids sold by criminal orsg. Mexican criminal orgs have been pushing much greater amounts of opioids in the last ten years, probably due to profits from marijuana being undercut. Prescription drug OD deaths have actually decreased as people switch from controlled substances to heroin/other opiates.[2]

4. Lack of access to effective treatment procedures. The US is woefully inadequate in this regard. "n the United States and Canada, rehabilitation programmes are still mainly abstinence based (Annan et al., 2017[75]). More specifically, in the United States only 8-9% of all substance treatment facilities between 2006 and 2016 had MAT programmes certified by SAMHSA...This happens despite evidence showing that opioid users who are treated only with psychological support are at twice greater overdose death risk than those who receive opioid agonist pharmacotherapy (Pierce et al., 2016[77])"

5. Stigmatization causing addicts not to seek treatment. "Research indicates that stigma contributes to individuals poor mental and physical health, non‐completion of substance use treatment, delayed recovery and reintegration processes, and increased involvement in risky behaviour (e.g. needle sharing)"

OxyContin is a controlled substance, so it's not actually legal. Here is an excerpt from an OECD publication on the opioid crisis on a specific case of decriminalization of opioids:

In 2001, Portugal decriminalised the possession and consumption of all narcotics and psychotropic substances for personal use, intended as the quantity required for an average individual consumption during a period of ten days. Exceeding this quantity, criminal procedures apply. Portugal’s decriminalisation reform has been particularly influential, since by introducing a de jure decriminalisation (changes in the law instead of changes in the daily practice), it has been a pioneer of the explicit decriminalisation of all drugs. Some of the main benefits of decriminalisation mentioned by Portuguese authorities can be summarised as follows:

Changes in the mind-set of the general population, contributing to consider drug use disorders as a medical condition rather than a criminal offence.

Creation of supplementary entrance doors to the public health system, particularly, through the Commissions for the Dissuasion of Drug Dependence.

Coherence enhancement between the health and judicial systems, markedly, to provide and expand access to public health interventions.

...

The decriminalisation of drugs is controversial in nature. However, empirical evidence shows that following decriminalization, Portugal has not witnessed major increases in drug use, but has experienced reductions in problematic use, drug-related harms (e.g. HIV-AIDS, hepatitis, overdose deaths) and criminal justice overcrowding (EMCDDA, 2018[223]; Hughes and Stevens, 2010[224]; Greenwald, 2009[225]). In addition, decriminalisation seems to have caused no harm through lower illicit drugs prices, which would lead to higher drug usage and dependence (Félix and Portugal, 2017[226]).[1]

I recommend checking out the sources I've linked, there's a lot of interesting information in them.

1. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/social-issues-migration-health...

2. https://www.overdosefreepa.pitt.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/...

Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#178
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but he was rich. And he got "touched". Therefore the rich are not untouchable, which was the original point under discussion. Just like the Sackler family does not appear to be immune from prosecution and confiscation of their property.

The rich are touchable if and only if they harm other rich people. See also: Bernie Madoff.

Did Epstein harm other rich people?

Re: Purdue Pharma files for bankruptcy with $10B plan to settle claims

#179
post #176
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FDA does quite a bit to keep both good and bad actors in check. They are not perfect, but for example they regularly track down outbreaks of food born illnesses in ways the producers simply can’t. https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety... Making wide sweeping statements based on very specific issues simply demonstrates ignorance of how these organizations actually interact with the systems t…

Oxycontin wasn't just rubber stamped for end of life cancer treatment. You're referring to when the FDA decided to further expand Purdue's drug rights enabling it to be used on 11-16 year olds. Purdue, when seeking this approval, were already facing criminal charges for their marketing of oxycontin. And the FDA's decision in expanding treatment to kids was primarily driven by them asking Purdue to carry out studies e…

To be clear doctors could and had already been prescribing OxyContin and other opioids to 11 year olds. The studies where about guidelines for use not ability to prescribe. In this very specific case, the system was working correctly.

Opioids are addictive and become less effective over time. Opioids can also be a valuable tool for relief of severe pain over a short to moderate period. The actual issue is not the drug in this case it’s a drug company pushing for more scales.

PS: I have seen a friend become addicted while in cancer treatment. But, I have also been prescribed opioids after major surgery. So yes they are clearly extremely dangerous, but they can treat levels of pain that are difficult to describe.

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