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How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

nytimes.com

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Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#171

Post by mthoms »

noer wrote: post #53
frogpelt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

>Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd. That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that. Do they want to listen to music? Do they want to create or record music? FWIW, I just searched for "music" and saw: An ad, a story ("run with music"), apple music, two music players I've never heard of and finally Spotify in position 6.

>That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that

I disagree. It's broad in the sense that that the user could be searching for any number of things. It's not broad in the sense that the user is likely looking for a music listening app.

Think of the real world equivalent. In common conversation when someone says "I like music", do you presume that they enjoy listening to, or making, music?

I'd say the intent is pretty clear for the majority of users.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#172

Post by esmi »

benologist wrote: post #70
frogpelt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

I see it differently. Way back when Microsoft shipped Internet Explorer with Windows it ruined companies. We see companies being arbitrarily ruined by Apple's actions every month. This platform abuse triggered massive antitrust actions in the US and EU that Microsoft lost quite spectacularly, costing them a fortune and forcing many changes to their software. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars

Actually, in the US, Microsoft lost, won the appeal, then settled.

Notice this key quote from below, "However, the DOJ did not require Microsoft to change any of its code nor prevent Microsoft from tying other software with Windows in the future."

Not really a loss I would say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#173

Post by henryfjordan »

zaroth wrote: post #46
nixpulvis wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an antitrust issue. If I own the market and some of the fruit, I'll clearly put myself in a better position to attract customers, and thus make sales. The rest of the fruit vendors are 2nd class. Not to mention Apple employees are banned from making apps outside of company time, since they are aware of the issue with insiders having power to make apps that out compete the rest.

How can it possibly be an anti-trust issue for a minority player in a competitive market to choose which products to display in their own retail store? This is markedly different then, for example, Google altering search results to promote their own products, because Google owns something like 90% of Search.

An Android app and an iPhone app are not compatible goods. You cannot replace one with the other. Try installing an APK on the iphone and let me know how that goes.

The "market" is smaller than you think. A classic way to determine alternatives to a product is by asking "if I raise the price of all apps, how many people will buy something else?" Iphone owners are kinda stuck eating the increase, aren't they?

Apple controls 100% of the iPhone app market. An iPhone owner made a $1000 investment into their phone and cannot just switch to Android. Apple takes advantage of that fact for their own benefit.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#174

Post by yyyk »

Bud wrote: post #37
HelloMcFly wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but the end result is that their algorithm pre-fix was clearly faulty and should be considered a mistake. Their gymnastics to the contrary just come across as either a bad-faith argument or self-delusion.

What comes across as cherry-picking to me is pointing out a single random inconsequential web search and the result it used to have in a previous year.

Not a single search, but many searches done repeatedly over time, proving the result is highly unlikely to be happenstance. Oh, and the results only happened to changed after Spotify launched an official complaint. The WSJ article the NYT links to is even more detailed.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#175

Post by partialrecall »

umvi wrote: post #73
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. If I delete Apple's Calendar, install a third party Calendar app (like Fantastical), and click a date link, I'll get a message asking me if I want to reinstall Apple's Calendar. I think it's pretty darn clear in that scenario what the user actually wants.

On the other hand, Apple products are (or were) frequently marketed towards the tech illiterate ("it just works") and so it's possible grandma accidentally deleted the calendar, tried to re-download via the App Store, downloaded the wrong one, etc.

>On the other hand, Apple products are (or were) frequently marketed towards the tech illiterate

This becomes a vicious self-justifying cycle that is profitable for Apple but harmful to those consumers, who are kept tech illiterate when they're denied the opportunity to step outside their comfort zone and learn something new.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#176

Post by riantogo »

frogpelt wrote: post #24
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

I feel you should be okay with that. It is just an extension of what you have accepted: Apple makes the hardware, software… and owns/controls the App Store.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#177

Post by sixstringtheory »

nixpulvis wrote: post #43
coldtea wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should work forever, as long you own the field, and people want to use said field because that gives them access to a huge marketplace of devices that you've built and sold. So there's that...

You lost me with your analogy. Let me extend the pigskin thought exprement a bit. If I own the football team, and the field, and the city (hell, why not), then sure I can choose who plays QB, so I choose my son. Maybe at the start he's even not that bad of a QB, and our team wins some games. Everyone is happy. After a little while though, people realize there's no sense trying out for QB on my team. My son, now left…

> it's not just my team that gets worse, but the whole league

I don't understand how you arrived at this conclusion.

I figured that it'd mean nobody tries out for QB on your team, all the best QBs go to other teams, eventually your team starts to suck and lose fans and therefore revenue, and the market forces either force you to get a new QB or your business in the team suffers and maybe folds. Problem solved either way, eventually.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#178

Post by saagarjha »

yoz-y wrote: post #55
mitchty wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing it was. iTunes search is wicked bad and has been since day 1. After they started allowing tags for apps it got worse, which is an impressive achievement.

Judging from the sheer number of "ASO" companies that contacted me the week I put out an app on the store, I believe that the main problem is mainly really bad spam control.

Yeah, companies frequently put their competitors' names in their keywords. Not going to name any names, but it's particularly bad in the ride sharing industry.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#179

Post by saagarjha »

ajscanlan wrote: post #152
Fnoord wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I care less about ads and more about trackers. Google Play says nada about trackers. Exodus project (and therefore F-Droid) does. If you come from CopperheadOS I can recommend /e/ or LineageOS + microG (/e/ also contains microG). microG does not implement GAds. You will still need to block trackers though.

Does the iOS App Store mention if an app uses trackers?

Nope. I would expect it to be difficult to analyze for that, at least with the amount of effort Apple is currently putting into App Store review.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#180

Post by saagarjha »

frogpelt wrote: post #24
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #14

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but it seems pretty minor compared to the fact that: 1) Apple's apps come preinstalled on every iPhone. 2) Apple's apps have permission to do things that 3rd party apps cannot. If I search for "Web Browser" on the App Store... well, technically I'll get results from third parties, but every single one is just a UI skin around Apple's own browser. That strikes me as a much larger p…

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

FYI, on my phone these are the results for "Music", in order:

* Search ad for Spotify.

* App Store story for "Run With Music".

* Apple Music.

* Some app called "Music".

* Some app called "Music>".

* Spotify.

* YouTube Music.

* SoundCloud.

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