Live data from Hacker News

What Happened in the UK Blackouts?

mitchoneill.com

171–175 of 175 posts

Re: What Happened in the UK Blackouts?

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 200 MW of generation trips instantly, which is typical when electrical equipment fails, you need 200 MW to replace it in the next few seconds, and then additional generation to bring the frequency back to Nominal. So far the largest battery is 40 MW? So not really going to help more than 40 MW can, even if it comes online instantly, when 200 MW trips off.

The point is to avoid the generator trip in the first place.

how much battery storage at what point in the system would have prevented this blackout?

Re: What Happened in the UK Blackouts?

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to avoid the generator trip in the first place.

how much battery storage at what point in the system would have prevented this blackout?

Answering that question would take a detailed analysis which I am not aware of. It would be less than the instant load of the Eaton Socon - Wymondley transmission circuit that was struck by lightning.

It is basically a question of providing just enough frequency support, for long enough, for the remainder of the grid to respond to the frequency drop. In other words, let the frequency sag a bit so generators respond but not so much that they disconnect.

I think there's also some control system error implied in the wind farm's drop as I read the article. That perhaps shouldn't have happened at all and was an un-analyzed state that will be corrected.

Re: What Happened in the UK Blackouts?

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how much battery storage at what point in the system would have prevented this blackout?

Answering that question would take a detailed analysis which I am not aware of. It would be less than the instant load of the Eaton Socon - Wymondley transmission circuit that was struck by lightning. It is basically a question of providing just enough frequency support, for long enough, for the remainder of the grid to respond to the frequency drop. In other words, let the frequency sag a bit so generators respond b…

>> but that battery in South Australia is only 100MW and the grid lost over 1400 MW

>I hear this kind of misconception fairly often and so it is worth noting that you don't need 1400 MW of battery to protect from this event.

I would be interested in any papers or literature that have led you to this conclusion.

as soon as (generation - load) 0 the frequency is going to change. If you lose 200MW of generation and have 100MW of batteries that are configured with 0 or very small amount of droop they see some small change in frequency and crank out 100MW to try and stop it from falling further. Then they are maxed out, there is still 100MW of imbalance for conventional generation with governors to take up, which they will as the frequency falls as if the trip had only been 100MW in the first place. How is this not a 1:1 relationship, 100 MW of batteries displace 100MW of lost generation?

For this event in the UK in particular it appears the issue is that the large windfarm, and 500MW of small embedded or distributed generation are en masse improperly configured or by nature are not able to ride through any small transient wobble in frequency. TFA didn't show us what voltage these plants saw.

Although a 200MW steam turbine also tripped due to the same lightning/transmission line trip event, so clearly it was subjected to something that exceeded instantaneous thresholds and had to trip immediately. And then that steam turbine tripping caused the gas turbines at the same plant to trip which indicates there are some design or operational issues at that plant.

Also is 20s reclose time for a transmission line standard? I've only configured distribution line reclosers but it was more on the order of 1s for the first reclose and maybe 7s for the second?

Re: What Happened in the UK Blackouts?

#174

It's notable that this report is completely consistent so far with the way I would design a cyber attack to take out a countries power grid. > The causes provided by RWE for the initiation of the trip of Little Barford steam turbine (ST1C) was due to discrepancies on three independent safety critical speed measurement signals to the generator control system. A cyber attack would most likely, rather than directly take…

This blackout destroyed our microwave. When the power come back on so did the microwave. But I already removed the rice. I guess being run for minutes with nothing it burned it out.

Re: What Happened in the UK Blackouts?

#175
post #119
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read your list and see a bunch of 'technical debt.' Trains put into operation without the ability to survive a power transient without intervention. Life critical backup power system failures. The set of critical sites is not being maintained properly. In my mind these failures are are not entirely unrelated; reliable power is taken for granted and the testing and maintenance necessary to cope with power outages is…

> Trains put into operation without the ability to survive a power transient without intervention. The trains were built to a environmental tolerance spec, and shutting down when that spec is exceeded seems like a reasonable thing to do. Having an expert test that all the safety systems are still working properly after they've been exposed to conditions they weren't designed for also seems prudent. Do you think peopl…

> The trains were built to a environmental tolerance spec and shutting down when that spec is exceeded seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Yes, they were built to a spec. According to the official technical report[1] these trains DID NOT experience anything outside that spec. The shut down was not supposed to occur. The trains are simply defective and both manufacturer and operator testing failed to reveal these defects. There is no other reasonable conclusion. Defective, inadequately tested trains.

> Having an expert test that all the safety systems are still working properly after they've been exposed to conditions they weren't designed for also seems prudent.

This bit of guesswork is also contradicted in the official report as the manufacturer has committed to providing a system update to permit operation to resume WITHOUT any of your supposed 'prudence.' Resuming operation on power recovery without intervention by technicians is the specified, expected behavior. This is a separate defect that also survived whatever obviously inadequate testing regime was supposedly in effect.

> Do you think people should pay higher ticket prices / more tax to fund trains that can tolerate a wider range of input frequencies, given how rarely these sorts of events happen?

Since the official conclusion and subsequent response by the manufacturer both show the trains were specified to tolerate these conditions the extraordinary costs you imagine are a fiction; the cost has already been paid. No higher ticket prices required. And since these conditions were specified we also know they were indeed anticipated despite their infrequency.

Both the manufacturer and the operator failed here. They got caught with their pants down. You may not like hearing that for whatever reason but that's the bottom line and inventing excuses won't change it.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20973513

Post reply on HN